with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

[ssd]

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

If you want to be sarcastic that's fine, I will draw it to the attention of those who can do something about it though rather than yours.

You have your opinion and I have mine. And they are poles apart.

I am getting bored reading about Northern Ireland and cries of 'anti-semitic'.

Go start another thread about Northern Ireland and start one up about what constitutes anti-semitism. This thread is questioning why Israel is behaving in such an abhorrent and genocidal way. Over to the Israeli apologists to try and justify genocide and holocaust. Or will it be Northern Ireland again?

you wonder how long the Israelis can try and deny the tide of public opinion turning against them. All those terrible years of history for world condemnation, isolation and shame. What's the point?

I am not being remotely sarcastic.

If, in my country, I comment that the IRA murdered a woman and hid her body on a beach so that her family could not give her a decent burial, that is not an "anti-Christian" remark.

If I comment that an Afghani and Pakistani gang abused vulnerable girls, that it not an "anti-Islamic remark."

If I comment that the state of Israel is killing and maiming Palestinians, and that Israelis are treating the spectacle as entertainment, that is not an "anti-Semitic remark".

If, however, you were to say "All Christians/Moslems/Jews are scum and should be killed" then it would be an anti-Christian/Moslem/Semitic remark.

Are you honestly telling me that you cannot tell the difference?

I am Jewish and I'm actually laughing at the thought that someone thinks I'm anti semitic.

I wonder if wannabe is shocked by this remark:

Tomer Siyonov, 22, a friend of the dead soldier, who finished his own compulsory army service two months ago, drew deeply on a cigarette as the eulogies were delivered. "Hamas killed my friend; we need to kill them – not just the Hamas militants but all the people in Gaza," he said.

Full article

Or is it just anti semitism that shocks her.

Note: i also find anti-semitism repugnant. Criticising Israeli regime and its actions, is not anti semitic.

Somewheresafe: you are unable to say yes the siege should end because that would go against your inherent belief that the palestinians somehow deserve and choose to live in a refugee camp. I was just curious to see whether there was anything else lurking underneath your overt bigotry, but there's not.

I am getting the impression you are just firing off silly questions in hopes of scoring some sort of silly points here.

I don't understand how you can claim that the blockade forces Palestinians to live in refugee camps when there is clearly ample concrete available for the building of homes and infrastructure, and plenty of engineering know-how available to provide sewers, electrical supply, roads and amenities.
And what's more, there is clearly money available to purchase weapons -- how much was spent this month alone on 2000 Israel-bound rockets I wonder? I am going to guess rockets and other weapons cost quite a bit.

Are you suggesting the Palestinians in Gaza all live in refugee camps? They don't.
Are you suggesting Palestinians never lived in refugee camps before the blockade? Because they have been around for decades, all over the Levant, none of them particularly welcome in the countries they lived in.

Are you aware that Egypt is also blockading Gaza and destroys tunnels when they are found?

Yes make it about me now.....

I am a long term poster. Not someone on here to drum up aggro. I haven't pointed specific fingers just feel sad that a discussion can't be had without it tipping into.... Well whatever. I don't want to upset or inflame.

I think the situation is repugnant but I see both sides. I have many friends in Israel. It's not a one sided conflict. Israel has a right to defend itself and Hamas is a bloody rich democratically elected government who let their people love in poverty. They use children as shields, they put weapons in built up areas. Israel didn't put them there.

My friends live peacefully on a kibbutz near where the young boys were abducted after orayer school and murdered. Their gates where blown off and tensions run high. The ceasefire has been broken many times by Hamas.

I am not being an apologist. I am trying to see both sides in a complicated, drawn out argument. You say the young soldier preached hate. That's happened on the streets of gaza many times. But two wrongs and all that....

It needs to stop I agree and the blockades need to be lifted. Medicine, water etc sent out and people let out.

I am allowed am opinion and after all you can all rant and rave on here but that's all it is.

To put it into perspective, Jews lived peacefully in the Middle East until Israel was created. My husband is Egyptian and his older relatives always said the Jews were an asset in Egypt until most fled after the Suez crisis. Arabs do not inherently hate Jews. However Jews were persecuted in Europe for centuries. The West essentially solved this problem by shipping its Jewish population to the Middle East.
Now you have three generations of Palestinians who have grown up stateless. They are trapped and the international community turns a blind eye.
On the other hand, Israel needs the conflict to create a sense of national identity and to keep its economy going (financed by US military aid)
I don't know how this can be resolved but if you are upset by the images of injured civilians especially children perhaps you could donate to the charities trying to help them.
Incidentally I am speaking as a person with friends from both sides but foremost as a mother who can't bear to see all the children who are suffering.

Yruapita -

I wonder if you are shocked by this article.

This is what Palestinian children - yes, nursery-aged children - are taught about Jews. Not just Israelis. All Jews. On Palestinian TV.

www.spiegel.de/international/world/wipe-out-the-jews-anti-semitic-hate-speech-in-the-name-of-islam-a-553724.html

""Sanabel, what do you want to do to help the Al-Aqsa Mosque?" Farfur asks on the children's program of Hamas's Al-Aqsa television station. "We want to fight." "And what else?" "Wipe out the Jews." Now Farfur, the cartoon character on Hamas's children's television program, is satisfied. Farfur is a carbon copy of Walt Disney's Mickey Mouse, but the Hamas version does something that Mickey would never do: He entertains children while propagating the murder of Jews.

International protests forced Hamas to take its Disney clone out of circulation. Al-Aqsa complied, but promptly turned Farfur's departure into an anti-Semitic statement: Farfur was clubbed to death by an Israeli official. Then the girl hosting the program turned to the camera and said: "You've seen how the Jews killed Farfur as a martyr. What do you want to say to the Jews?" A three-year-old girl named Shaima called into the show to say: "We don't like Jews, because they are dogs! We will fight them!" "Oh, Shaima, you're right," the girl in the studio replied, "the Jews are criminals and our enemies."

The Hamas station, founded in 2006, is modeled on the Hezbollah station in neighboring Lebanon, al-Manar. Al-Manar's children's program shows children wearing explosive belts and images of dying Israeli soldiers, with triumphant chants as background music. Cartoons depict scenes like that of a child blowing himself up near Israeli soldiers, or of a smiling boy flying toward Israel on a missile. Adult viewers can enjoy video clips that use inspirational graphics and rousing music to glorify the act of committing a suicide bombing, while the evening lineup offers family entertainment with a series of films based on the classic anti-Semitic forgery "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.""

Or is it just people expressing anti-Palestinian views that shocks you.

Go on, then, let's hear your explanation for how this is Anti-Zionist, not Anti-Semitic. Despite the endless references to Jews.

It's almost pedantic and definitely pointless to try to distinguish between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in the Arab world. I wish we could achieve justice and fairness and frankly hope for both sides so another generation isn't raised with so much hatred.

lem73 - a sensible post.

Of course historically, Arabs and Jews got on very well, for centuries - after all, both are semitic peoples and share many customs and much religious tradition. Ancient Jewish communities existed in many Middle-Eastern countries. All the Muslims I know personally are pleasant, tolerant, and just like anyone else I know. (I did once teach a terrifying guy from Afghanistan just after 9/11 who gave me the heeby-jeebies, but he was definitely the exception. I've been teaching a really lovely Palestinian lady this year; we got on very well.) You would need a heart of stone not to be upset by images of injured civilians in any conflict, and donating money to support them sounds a very constructive thing to do.

The only thing I wouldn't agree with is that Israel needs war for its economy - it has a very successful high-tech economy (as well as tourism etc); I don't think spending as fortune on defence really makes much economic sense. It is probably true that some politicians benefit from war politically but I'd be surprised if Israel benefited more from war than peace.

Topbanana, my loyalties do not lie with Hamas. I am all for them being brought to account if they are proven to have committed war crimes.

Israel has lost its 'moral high ground' after the mass slaughter of babies and children in the recent days and beyond. It wouldnt surprise me if every Palestinian child, after having witnessed what Israeli regime has done to their family, friends, siblings, now aspires to hurt those who hurt them, when they grow up. Did Israel think it was winning hearts and minds by bombing babies? Even its allies are appalled and turning away.

Wannabe, where is the proof that hamas uses human shields? Do you think Netanyahu's diagrams are proof?

What and when did netanyahu know about the 3 teenagers that he wouldnt share with the rest of the Israel?
Where is the proof that Hamas killed them? You guys believe a lot of crap that Netanyahu comes out with. He brands everyone against Israeli policies an anti-semite too!

I think having an enemy - the Palestinians - binds the many different groups in Israel together against a common enemy. People assume Jews are some homogeneous group. They're not and they came to Israel from all over. However they are bound by a common enemy and I believe politicians like Netanyahu manipulate fear of Hamas for their own gains. This is why I am pessimistic about the possibility of peace, in addition to the 3 generations of Palestinians brought up in limbo.

Top banana, then be prepared to be surprised!

Why do you think Israel has not considered peace/two state solution? Why do you think it aggressively builds settlements? Why do you think it wont lift the blockade? Because it's a peace loving regime? It has more to gain (land) from the suffering of the Palestinians.

I was musing today on those who feel that Palestinians have an inalienable right to the territory that is currently Israel because they used to live there. I thought about where my family came from, Prussia - German for hundreds of years. But now Polish. After the Second World War, large chunks of Germany were given to Poland, although historically they had always been German. The Germans living there were given no compensation. They've not been blowing up the Poles, at least not so as I'd noticed. I've been back to my family's ancestral village - I saw the houses family members had lived in. One we looked inside and it still even had the same antique wooden furniture that had belonged to its Jewish owners, my relatives, before the war. Given lock stock and barrel to the new Polish owners. My father's cousin (who escaped Germany just before the war and fled to Argentina) came back to visit and wept to see his childhood home still with his mother's furniture in. But he didn't demand it back off the Pole.

This does happen in/as a result of war. If every country was required under moral/international law to return all territories to their original inhabitants, we'd find America and Australia would empty pretty damn quick. We'd have to get out of Northern Ireland. (And would we require those with Norman or Anglo-Saxon blood to bugger off back to France or Germany?)

etc etc etc.

Land isn't fixed as the eternal property of one race or nation, just because they once happened to live there. I'm not going to demand my Prussian house back.

It just strikes me as curious. Interested to hear others' views.

Yruapita - your post made no sense. Israel has considered a two-state approach. It is Hamas that refuses to countenance it. I'd imagine the reason it won't lift the blockade is because it fears that that will just make it easy for Hamas to bring in loads more weapons. Which is an understandable fear given the circumstances.

But Topbanana, if you could go back in time and stop the Germans from evicting your family in the first place, the Europeans from exterminating the Native Americans and the English from destroying Aboriginal culture you would wouldn't you?

What is happening to the Palestinians is happening NOW.

Topbanana,
You keep believing the propaganda Netanyahu feeds you. Keep looking at his diagrams as proof and believe his words as nothing but the truth.

Yruapita:
Or is it just the remark of that individual at a comrade's funeral that you find so shocking?
Or do you wish to extrapolate from an alleged comment by one soldier at a funeral that Israel in general is bent on killing everyone in Gaza?

It's almost pedantic and definitely pointless to try to distinguish between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in the Arab world.

Something for the hair-splitters here to ponder.

What is happening to the Palestinians is happening NOW

Yes, and what they want and have always wanted is to turn back time. They are willing to reject the prospect of peace NOW in order to return to the world as it existed pre-1948.
It is really important for Palestinians to recognise that the clock is not going to be turned back.

Topbanana, if you could go back in time and stop the Germans from evicting your family in the first place, the Europeans from exterminating the Native Americans and the English from destroying Aboriginal culture you would wouldn't you?

TheSameBoat -- does going back in time strike you as realistic? Because if so, then you are dealing in fairy tales.

There comes a point where claiming land based on historical occupation becomes an exercise in farce, and the example of the foundation of the state of Israel and all that has flowed from that point should tell you how futile it is to try to ignore the passage of time.

If you are concerned with what is happening right now, today, then reality that exists right now is where you start, not back in the days of the Canaanites, or Herod, or Nebuchadnezzar, or wherever you care to put your pin in the calendar.

The state of Israel is being a bully and terrorist in the name of Jews.

My ire is with the state of Israel. Interesting that the people who say, not all Jews are Israelis also choose to defend the nations of israel's actions by referring to the holocaust.
I condemn this genocide as I would have, had I lived during hitlers's time.

Israel's actions recently is indefensible. Ridiculous to continue to say that this is in defence of its ppl. The ppl of Palestine are not all Hamas freedom fighters. Yet the conditions they live in, are atrocious because of the bully that is the state of Israel. This started in response to the accusation that the three murdered boys were killed by Hamas. Something Israel has not been able to show evidence of, and Hamas denies as well.

Response is so disproportionate and it's not an equal playing field. I say shame on all leaders for watching this continue. I can't believe any person feels able to defend israel's actions

The blood is firmly on the hands of European leaders who have allowed the creation of the state of Israel. All the atrocities that have ensued have been somehow legitimised because of this, and now you have 2 states that are fighting (with very unequal means) for their survival. Israel will never exist peacefully in that region, and the people who choose to live there shouldn't be surprised that they aren't leading normal lives. Shame, because I do think very highly of the jewish community, its resilience, sense of solidarity and its tremendous intellectual and scientific achievements. All these are somehow invalidated by the terrorist state that it supports though. And now it should bear the consequences.

mathanxiety No one is claiming going back to pre biblical times. That's an equally lame argument when the anti-Semitic one can't be used.

the international court of justice in analyzing competing claims for sovereignty involved in territorial disputes, applies a tripartite, hierarchical decision rule that looks first to treaty law, then to uti possidetis (post colonial boundaries), and finally to effective control.
The last element is what Israel clings on because it is well documented in Jurisprudence that the bully wins. in such cases duration and degree of the control are the most important considerations because they make public the claimant state's exercise of the right.
In this respect, an effective rule based on solid effective control is analogous to a common law property award based on adverse possession, whereby the claimant’s possession must be actual, open and notorious, exclusive, continuous, adverse or hostile, and extant for a certain period of time.
Although the international formulation is somewhat different, effective control claims are also based in law.
When the party whose territory is encroached in this manner can not survive in the encroachment, the claim is bolstered, as in a common law adverse possession claim.

Israel is not acting randomly but very systematically. And am not using that last term lightheartedly. Am very well aware of its connotation no need to point that out.