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with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

999 replies

ssd · 20/07/2014 23:22

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 06:22

Nihat, I think you have the wrong end of quite a few sticks there.

Weird bit of victim blaming there, Orphanblue.
'Israel will never exist peacefully in that region, and the people who choose to live there shouldn't be surprised that they aren't leading normal lives.'
Could it be that Israel has had to continuously fight for its existence because surrounding states declared they would never recognise its right to exist, beginning the day after the declaration of statehood when Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt invaded Israel?
Could it be that British mishandling of governing Palestine, and in particular their appointment of a Nazi to the post of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and leader of Palestinians during crucial years from 1920 to the end of WW2, made it very unlikely that any goodwill might ever develop in the region (where for generations up to the time of the Grand Mufti's career Jews lived very peacefully among Muslims)?
Britain promised Palestine to both the Palestinians (via Lawrence of Arabia, in 1915) and the Jews (via the Balfour Declaration, in 1917). Maybe this has something to do with the belief of each side that it had a claim to the territory? The land went to the group that fought harder for it.

Sorry to bore with British history again.

Laptopwieldingharpy · 25/07/2014 06:28

The language used by the court is in no way ambiguous. Israel is the "occupying power", the territory is "occupied Palestinian territory".

Israel systematically and continuously breaks the law. Hamas firing rockets in self defense does not change a thing.

If you are in doubt see an example of advisory opinion
Opinions which are the basis upon which the security council adopts resolutions systematically ignored and/or breached by Israel.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 06:34

Of course nobody is suggesting bringing back the Romans or the Assyrians or whoever. My post was in response to The SameBoat's fairy tale scenario. It remains, however, that the claim of Palestinians rests on historical occupancy of the land. And of course on the fact that Britain made certain promises to potential allies against the Ottomans at a time of war that it had no intention of keeping.

Of course, squatter's rights apply everywhere. NI for instance, where they were backed up by Britain. And in the rest of Ireland too, until the squatters were given the boot. Boundary commissions and courts of this and that may dress it up as they please, but the old 'possession is nine tenths of the law' principal applies -- and Israel is not the first to figure that out.
Hence the institution known as 'The British Empire', upon which allegedly the sun never set. The bully indeed wins.

If the Palestinians ever had the means to, then Israel in turn would get the bum's rush and the Arab state of Palestine would be established, and squatters' rights would apply.

Laptopwieldingharpy · 25/07/2014 06:35

Post colonial boundaries are a moot point. No serious legal argument can be based on old grievances. See how that worked for Yugoslavia and the current mess unfolding in Ukraine.

Laptopwieldingharpy · 25/07/2014 06:37

Not historical occupancy. actual contemporary occupation, eviction, expropriation and colonies.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 06:44

They can cry about it, Laptopwieldingharpy. Meanwhile, in real life, Israel exists despite the failure of Palestinian so-called 'leadership' to recognise it.

It's a great pity the court chooses to encourage the Palestinians in their mistaken belief that Israel will pack its bags and go quietly if only enough rockets can be lobbed into it. It would be far more responsible to discourage Palestinian 'leaders' from thinking their struggle is winnable, and to press them to negotiate.

Laptopwieldingharpy · 25/07/2014 06:53

See you are doing it again. Being totally disingenuous. Negotiate what? A surrender?
Shut up and crawl back under the rubble? Will you even allow the people a truce to bury their dead children?
Thank you, very generous of you. Am sure they will be very grateful.
Good day to you.

PigletJohn · 25/07/2014 06:58

There is nothing remotely hair-splitting about the difference between anti-semitism, and criticising the actions of the State of Israel.

Is there anybody else unable to grasp the difference?

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 07:14

I wasn't aware I was under scrutiny for disingenuity on this thread but thanks for the heads up. Must watch that.

Maybe start negotiations by recognising the right of the state of Israel to exist. After all, you are not negotiating in good faith if you do not recognise the right of your negotiating partner to negotiate on behalf of anyone, cede territory, call ceasefires to allow for funerals of dead children, etc. Negotiation without the recognition of the right to exist would an exercise in sophistry, and perhaps metaphysics.

Laptopwieldingharpy · 25/07/2014 07:21

The right of Israel to exist is not what's in play. It's the right of Palestinians to the same that you do not seem to understand is the whole point of this conversation.
Of well maybe you are not disingenuous. Just genuinely obtuse.

Alisvolatpropiis · 25/07/2014 07:26

Nobody has failed to recognise Israel's right to exist math Hmm

Israel's right to exist doesn't cover oppressing and murdering the people it has forcibly taken land from in the years following it's creation.

SusieSusieSheep · 25/07/2014 07:26

Picking sides in this mess is ridiculous, everyone is as bad as each other, but you have to be pretty sick to not mind children's limbs being blown off by Israeli bombs.

Generally I prefer it when children's faces aren't ripped off their skulls, particularly when it's at the hands of rich governments who must be aware how futile their actions are.

Still, fuck 'em, eh?

nihatsgirl · 25/07/2014 07:39

Mathanxiety. I am smart enough to recognise who the victim here is. It's certainly not the country with all the money and military power, stealing land from an indigenous group and killing it's children, as well as stifling economic growth/prosperity. Laughable that you would consider Israel a victim here.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 07:45

The Tablet
'Against the backdrop of large anti-Semitic riots in Paris, and the murder of four people at the Jewish Museum in Brussels by a French Muslim killer, Mehdi Nemmouche, French Prime Minister Manuel Valls made a resoundingly firm connection between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism that other world leaders—and many Jews—are afraid to make. As is his style, he went straight to the point: “Anti-semitism, this old European disease,” he said in a speech, has taken “a new form. It spreads on the Internet, in our popular neighborhoods, with a youth that has lost its points of reference, has no conscience of history, and who hides itself behind a fake anti-Zionism.”'

Emanuele Ottolenghi piece in The Guardian
'...Anti-Zionists are prepared to treat Jews equally and fight anti-semitic prejudice only if Jews give up their distinctiveness as a nation: Jews as a nation deserve no sympathy and no rights, Jews as individuals are worthy of both. Supporters of this view love Jews, but not when Jews assert their national rights. Jews condemning Israel and rejecting Zionism earn their praise. Denouncing Israel becomes a passport to full integration. Noam Chomsky and his imitators are the new heroes, their Jewish pride and identity expressed solely through their shame for Israel's existence. Zionist Jews earn no respect, sympathy or protection. It is their expression of Jewish identity through identification with Israel that is under attack.

'The argument that it is Israel's behaviour, and Jewish support for it, that invite prejudice sounds hollow at best and sinister at worst. That argument means that sympathy for Jews is conditional on the political views they espouse. This is hardly an expression of tolerance. It singles Jews out. It is anti-semitism.

'Zionism reversed Jewish historical passivity to persecution and asserted the Jewish right to self-determination and independent survival. This is why anti-Zionists see it as a perversion of Jewish humanism. Zionism entails the difficulty of dealing with sometimes impossible moral dilemmas, which traditional Jewish passivity in the wake of historical persecution had never faced. By negating Zionism, the anti-semite is arguing that the Jew must always be the victim, for victims do no wrong and deserve our sympathy and support.

'Israel errs like all other nations: it is normal. What anti-Zionists find so obscene is that Israel is neither martyr nor saint. Their outrage refuses legitimacy to a people's national liberation movement. Israel's stubborn refusal to comply with the invitation to commit national suicide and thereby regain a supposedly lost moral ground draws condemnation. Jews now have the right to self-determination, and that is what the anti-semite dislikes so much.'

HTH

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 07:53

Alisvolatpropiis:
From Wikipedia.
If you have a problem with this article, then you have the right to proffer an amendment that better matches any contradictory facts you have to hand --
'In 2009 Prime Minister Ehud Olmert demanded the Palestinian Authority's acceptance of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, which the Palestinian Authority rejected.[18] The Knesset plenum gave initial approval in May 2009 to a bill criminalising the public denial of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, with a penalty of up to a year in prison.[19]

In 2011, the PA Ambassador to India, Adli Sadeq, wrote in the official PA daily: "They [Israelis] have a common mistake or misconception by which they fool themselves, assuming that Fatah accepts them and recognizes the right of their state to exist, and that it is Hamas alone that loathes them and does not recognize the right of this state to exist. They ignore the fact that this state, based on a fabricated [Zionist] enterprise, never had any shred of a right to exist."[20] In a different part of the article the PA ambassador explained this explicitly: "There are no two Palestinians who disagree over the fact that Israel exists, and recognition of it is restating the obvious. But recognition of its right to exist is something else, different from recognition of its [physical] existence."[20]

In 2013 Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh reiterated that the Palestinian Arabs as a whole will never recognize Israel's right to exist, and certainly not to exist as the Jewish state, by saying: "We had two wars...but Palestinians did not and will not recognize Israel"

wordsmithsforever · 25/07/2014 07:53

Susiesusiesheep, I'm afraid I disagree that everyone is as bad as each other. We are looking at the IDF, a massive well equipped army, vs the ordinary Palestinian people who are being killed. One side is violating human rights on a massive scale. Part of the other side is Hamas shooting back at a relatively few (thank God) Israeli soldiers as ordinary Palestinians face an onslaught by land, air and sea. It's not even.

wannabestressfree Thu 24-Jul-14 23:29:22
I think some of the statements on here are shocking and blatantly anti Semitic.

If you see anything anti-Semitic, please report to MN HQ. I think they are watching this thread closely and will certainly delete anything racist or anti-Semitic.

However, criticising the actions of Israel and in particular the IDF does not however equate to anti-Semitism. This view has been pushed for a while to shut down any debate on this subject. Fortunately more and more human rights activists (who happen to be Jewish) are speaking out. That does not make them or other human rights supporters (who happen not to be Jewish) anti-Semitic.

Yes you will also find nasty, anti-Semitic people criticising the Israeli government but it does not follow that therefore anyone who criticises the actions of the Israeli government is anti-Semitic.

Certainly my own uncle was a loyal member of his synagogue as were many members of his family and he was a great supporter of the ideas of Jewish Voices for Peace. That does not make him anti-Semitic!

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 07:57

Amazed you think firing rockets at Israel is justifiable Nihatsgirl.

What is your opinion of the 7/7 bombings?

sergeantmajor · 25/07/2014 07:57

Yruapita - you ask for evidence regarding Hamas' use of human shields.
They broadcast their policy on TV:

www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUpBvIBfZ-foo5ZbLH5O0N4g&v=eQ6S0-o3uFI&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

They are not ashamed. They are proud. But I am pleased that as someone clearly very sympathetic and supportive of Palestinians that you think this policy is shameful and should be denied. I repeat: the Palestinians deserve better than Hamas.

nihatsgirl - I agree that the people of Palestine are not all Hamas. But I don't agree with your synopsis of recent events, saying this started because of the murdered boys, which were unproved to be murdered by Hamas. The Israeli response to the murder was to mourn and to search for the perpertrators. When the Arab teenager was murdered by Israeli thugs in the aftermath, there was more mourning and arrests on both sides. But not war. Not a single Israeli salvo. No military response. It was Hamas that began sending over hundreds of rockets. This continued for several days before Israeli retaliation. This continued through ceasefires. This continues during the ground offensive in Gaza. These events happened just days ago. Your newspapers covering the order of events are probably still sitting in your recycling box. Don't re-write history already.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 07:58

Is it possible for a victim to have money and military might?

PigletJohn · 25/07/2014 08:13

Wordsmith, you are right, we keep seeing vague and unsubstantiated allegations that it is anti-semitic to criticise the actions of the state of Israel, and that anti-semitic posts are made on this thread?

Why is it that the allegations are not supported by evidence?

wannabestressfree · 25/07/2014 08:25

I have done what was suggested and emailed mumsnet hq.

wordsmithsforever · 25/07/2014 08:36

Good, I don't want to see anything anti-Semitic or anti-Islamic or indeed anti any other group on this thread or others on MN. Hopefully we can all agree on that much.

wordsmithsforever · 25/07/2014 08:44

In haste - need to get out the door!

Math: Is it possible for a victim to have money and military might?

Yes I think it is. If a rich, truly democratic country (which upheld all its citizen's rights equally) had great military might and were then to be invaded by another country that was, say for example, bent on trampling on the rights of particular groups in that rich powerful country, say for example, women's rights and Jewish rights, then yes that rich country would be a victim and I would support it 100%.

But that is a very theoretical situation and that's not what's going on now.

topbanana1 · 25/07/2014 08:44

Wow, so much outrageous guff posted on this thread! I don't have time to pick up the individuals on these now, but shall be back when I do have time.

I really don't know if it is simple lack of logic that makes people come out with this stuff or deliberate deviousness born of hatred.

Tragic either way.

Oh, and I'll be firing rockets at Poland later this morning, to reclaim my family's shtetl.

Watch out for the news!

topbanana1 · 25/07/2014 08:54

Actually, I can't resist tackling the nearest one.

wordsmithforever - you wrote:

"Part of the other side is Hamas shooting back at a relatively few (thank God) Israeli soldiers as ordinary Palestinians face an onslaught by land, air and sea. It's not even."

Please tell me how you construe 2000 rockets launched at Israeli civilian targets in under a month as Hamas "shooting back at relatively few Israeli soldiers". It's not. It is Hamas firing rockets indiscriminately at Israeli men, women and, of course, children. Rocket fire has been aimed at all major cities within reach repeatedly. That there haven't been widespread civilian casualties is down to the excellent Israeli defences - it's certainly not down to want of trying.

You seem one of the more sensible ones on this thread. How can you knowingly come out with something so blatantly false?