with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

[ssd]

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

If reducing Gaza to rubble, killing and maiming large numbers of the population, preventing economic growth, obstructing the payment of public servants and destroying the infrastructure with the long-term blockade does not make the people of Gaza become friendly, what will Israel try next?

Math, no I don't think peace is satisfactory if it doesn't lead to human rights for all.

"What is their aim?" The aim is proper peace talks, as outlined in the Jewish Voice for Peace video further upthread.

Now indulge me for a moment, I was going post it here for easy access but the JVP website is down. I wonder if it has been hacked? And the video is now only available on you tube - see below.

It seems it has been recently posted and at present there are only two comments but wouldn't it be interesting if in the next few days, when you tube is the only place to access this video, a whole bunch of ugly anti-Semitic comments appear, designed to piss off and scare the ordinary Israeli whilst they're watching the video?

Disclaimer: My government had its own dirty tricks department which tended to make one a bit paranoid when stuff like this happened. They were known for regular interference with sources of actual information.

Math my question was asked honestly. I am genuinely curious about whether you believe the siege should be lifted. Israel refuses to lift the siege which has crippled palestine for 7 years. As if the apartheid wasn't bad enough on its own.

There cannot be any discussions of peace with our reference to what palestine are begging for - an end to the siege. Do you agree or do you believe palestinians MUST live under siege? Please no justifications as to why there is a siege. Just an answer please.

I am genuinely curious how any human with brain cells would not want an end to the siege of an entire nation of people.

Ah I take it all back (not the video!) The JVP website is up again. Good - I was feeling a bit paranoid there for a bit!

Here's the link to the JVP website at jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

Strangely enough, PJ, I think Israelis' main concern is that they'e spending a lot of time in bomb shelters getting rocketed. The PR considerations are probably low down the list for most of them. It may also be an excellent PR coup to let a Grad rocket fall on an Israeli nursery, but I don't think it is being considered.

There seems to be an idea among the posters here that Israel should just say "Oh well, we're being rocketed but we'd better not do anything back in case we hurt any civilians, so we'll just wait and hope the Iron Dome works."

I think you'll also find that the payments were blocked by the US, as Hamas is categorised by the US and Europe as a terrorist group. What you call "public servants" others would call hitmen and thugs. Hamas also went round destroying ATM's to ensure than Fatah employees (who are, as a rule, actual civil servants) couldn't draw their salaries.

Wrt 'bringing Ireland into it' --

I think I need to clear up the misapprehension that 'Ireland' or 'Irish history' have been the subject of my posts referring to British government policy relating to the island of Ireland.

I also need to clear up the mistaken belief that Northern Ireland is a part of Ireland, and the associated belief that events in Northern Ireland are part of Irish history.

The other mistake that seems to inform posters objecting to my posts about 'Ireland' and 'Irish history' is that the island of Ireland was in some way separate or independent from Britain when British forces operated there before 1922.

In both the early 1920s and the 1970s, the island of Ireland and NI respectively were under direct rule from Westminster.

When I speak of British policy in Ireland, I am
(1) talking about British government actions and policies, and therefore British history/Britain, and British people and voters, and
(2) pointing out that it is rather shallow to complain about Israeli policy towards Palestinians when Britain carried out counter terrorist wars twice on its neighbouring island and in fact within UK borders.

When such ignorance of facts of British history in the last hundred years is posted, it is tempting to ask how much understanding of history or current events in the Middle East there really is behind the opinions.

I was not so much thinking of how to create a PR win, I was thinking of how not to be a state at war.

"There seems to be an idea among the posters here that Israel should just say "Oh well, we're being rocketed but we'd better not do anything back in case we hurt any civilians, so we'll just wait and hope the Iron Dome works"

I do not believe that is true. I believe that posters here are more attracted to the idea of dealing with the causes of the unending cycle of hatred and violence. Acts which are calculated to create increased hatred and violence seem futile. The small number of Israeli mothers weeping for the dead sons weep no more than do the larger numbers of Palestinian mothers. The comrades of the small numbers of Israeli soldiers killed do not vow vengeance any more than do Palestinians' comrades. The sons and daughters of the small number of dead or crippled Israelis will not grow up with any less peace and love in their hearts than the sons and daughters of dead or crippled Palestinians.

somewheressafe - of course the Gazans don't need to live under siege. They could say: "right, we're going to being the Singapore of the Middle East - we've got an educated population, a ready market for our goods and services in Israel and Egypt, and the goodwill of the whole world. Instead of investing 75% of our aid money in missiles and tunnels, we will actually try to help the locals, rather than keeping them in complete misery in refugee camps".

Some confidence building measures from both sides, and there would be no problem. Instead, Hamas adopts a maniacally antisemitic doctrine, commits itself to destroying Israel, plots actions against Egyptian soldiers, lobs missiles into Southern Israel, and then complains when it isn't the flavour of the month. Remarkable!

SamG76

Does Singapore not have ports and roads? And sewage plants? And running water? Is it able to use wells and reservoirs to obtain drinking water? And is it not permitted to use boats that go to sea? Are its citizens and trading partners able to enter and leave it?

If a powerful neighbour destroyed its infrastructure and blockaded it, I am sure it would not be an economic powerhouse.

Answer the question please - do you think the siege should end. You are the least qualified person on this thread to state what 'Gazans could say'. And please remember that they are not responsible for being kept in refugee camps. Israel is responsible for that.

be fair, somewheresafe. Oppressed minorities have been kept in ghettoes before.

Sam that would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic! How on earth do you suppose a blockaded nation crammed into a shitty little strip of land, with no control of their own borders or infrastructure, goes about becoming the "Singapore of the middle east"?
Of course, they might well have natural gas which will make them wealthy, but I doubt very much the Israelis have any plans of letting them keep that.

PJ - the restrictions are there for pragmatic and not ideological reasons. A few confidence building measures, and I'm sure both Egypt and Israel would be delighted to cooperate. And the refugee camps are absolutely a Palestinian policy. Why do you think the Israelis integrated all their refugees, but the Palestinians, despite huge amounts of aid, have decided to keep the camps to stop the inhabitants becoming settled?

Somesheresafe, you are still asking dishonest questions if you want answers that do not relate to the context of Hamas refusal to recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist.

There is a lot of disquiet in Hashemite Jordan related to its Palestinian population. Lebanon restricts access to some professions. For some reason, Arab regimes are not showing much willingness to allow Palestinians to settle and become citizens.

It seems the blockade hasn't stopped the flow of arms, concrete, etc., into Gaza, Backinthering.

Sam I'm sorry but what you're saying is untrue and makes no sense. Keep what camps, where? Are you claiming that the Palestinians have the option of settling elsewhere in Israel but have refused?

Just as I expected. You are unable to answer. There is of course only one answer. And you are unable to say yes the siege should end because that would go against your inherent belief that the palestinians somehow deserve and choose to live in a refugee camp. I was just curious to see whether there was anything else lurking underneath your overt bigotry, but there's not.

I think israel has convinced many around the world this month that it does not have the right to exist including myself. It cannot demand for itself what it refuses to grant others.

This brings us back to my question:

If reducing Gaza to rubble, killing and maiming large numbers of the population, preventing economic growth, obstructing the payment of public servants and destroying the infrastructure with the long-term blockade does not make the people of Gaza become friendly, what will Israel try next?

Backinthering - the Israelis made an effort to clear the refugee camps in the 1970s and settle the refugees in better housing in Gaza. This was vigorously opposed by the PLO, who preferred their constituents living in squalor in order to keep them focused on their right to return. I think there was even a UN resolution in 1976 ordering the Israelis to stop building housing and send the people back to their camps. Even in PA controlled areas there are still efugee camps, which suggests that improving living conditions isn't a high priority.

Somewhere safe - could I have a list of all the countries that you believe don't have a right to exist. Laos? N Korea? Lesotho? Or is it just Israel?

Israel is in the habit of ignoring UN resolutions.

I think some of the statements on here are shocking and blatantly anti Semitic.

That's terrible, Wannabe.

Can you point out the ones which are blatantly anti-Semitic please? We can't afford to let them hide away among the ones which simply criticise the State of Israel's policy of killing and maiming Palestinians.