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with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

999 replies

ssd · 20/07/2014 23:22

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 24/07/2014 18:25

you allege that I wish to stop you posting about other topics. Certainly not. That is an untruth. You can write as much as you want about Irish history, vaccination, gardening, cookery, decorating

Allow me to fall on my knees and thank you PigletJohn, for permission to post as I see fit..
Please.
I insist.

SamG76 · 24/07/2014 18:27

Thanks for that, math - you're right of course that the B&T's were mainly active in the South. Yitzhak Shamir, the leader iof the Stern Gang, was known as "Michael" in tribute to Collins, so the early Lehi clearly based themselves on the IRA. Of course, they didn't spend their time shelling London or boasting how keen they were to become martyrs, and they tried to protect their own civilians.

mathanxiety · 24/07/2014 18:32

Are you suggesting that I am not entitled to comment on what you say, math, especially when it is malicious lies?

As I said before, if you have an objection to what I post, either its style or any content you thing infringes MN Talk Guidelines, then report me.

If you have already reported my posts and MN has declined to delete them, then be so kind as to stop referring to my opinions as malicious lies.

If otoh, you object to my posts on the basis that they disagree with your opinions, then 'I'm sorry you feel that way', as they say.

wordsmithsforever · 24/07/2014 18:36

This sums it up for me - see www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/21/hospital-hamas-isreal-hiding-among-civilians

wordsmithsforever · 24/07/2014 18:39

Israel bans radio advert listing names of children killed in Gaza - see www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israel-bans-radio-advert-listing-names-children-killed-gaza

Clearly debate is not allowed in Israel by the present government.

mathanxiety · 24/07/2014 18:45

PJ
You are not, I think, a person who has described another poster, without an anti-Semitic bone in their body, of being an anti-Semite, and supporting violent attacks on Jews, and suggested that they have Nazi links?

If you think there have been posts that transgress MN Guidelines, then please report the offensive posts, as you are obliged to do by the Talk Guidelines and thus avoid the sort of witchhunting the MN Talk Guidelines are there to prevent.

The purpose of the Guidelines and the 'Report' button is to allow MN to decide what is objectionable in both style and content.

So again, if you have not yet done so, please report all posts of mine (and anyone else's too) that you find objectionable.

Backinthering · 24/07/2014 18:51

Well done the Israel cheerleaders for completely derailing the discussion away from the mounting civilian body count in Gaza.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 24/07/2014 18:53

Shall we just leave the anti-Zionists to it?

SamG76 · 24/07/2014 18:53

wordsmithsforever - I can assure you there is constant debate in Israel, including about the advert. I don't know what the position would be in the UK if you tried to put on an advert listing the names of all the Afghans or Iraqi families whom we killed, or the names of everyone who died on the General Belgrano. It's quite possible it would be considered to breach editorial guidelines.

wordsmithsforever · 24/07/2014 19:03

Glad to hear it John, because that debate is what might just lead to peace. Somehow I don't think such a list would be banned in the UK.

mathanxiety · 24/07/2014 19:27

The issue of civilians in the line of fire is one that has come up again today, with reports of more children killed by Israeli shelling. (BBC)

The Gaza Strip is about 140 square miles in area, and it is densely populated, with just under 2 million people. About 40% of the population is under 14. All of this is known to Hamas. Yet rocket launchers are positioned there and rockets are launched into Israel.

Here is a photo of a rocket leaving Gaza bound for Israel. Note the built up area it is being launched from.

wordsmithsforever · 24/07/2014 19:29

And actually John, just for the record, you know I wouldn't even call myself an anti-Zionist, based on my understanding of the Zionism I talked about with friends many years ago at university in South Africa.

I had a good friend who was a Zionist and he was a hugely ethical decent person, active in our anti-apartheid struggle and very interested in human rights for all. I am admittedly no expert on Zionism but I think the Israeli state is currently applying a very narrow version of its very own interpretation of Zionism to the detriment of the ordinary Israeli people and (obviously) the Palestinians.

Unfortunately I've lost touch with my old university friend (in fact just googled him now but he had a very common name so doubt if I'll ever track him down again) but I just cannot imagine he would be supporting what is going on now.

mathanxiety · 24/07/2014 19:33

Do we know yet how Hamas decides on locations for rocket launchers? Has anybody asked Hamas to explain the rationale?
Or is that beside the point?

Backinthering · 24/07/2014 19:47

So given how densely populated Gaza is, where do you suggest Hamas launch rockets from?

mathanxiety · 24/07/2014 19:51

It looks very much to me as if Hamas counts on the existence of the dense population as some sort of I'll use the word 'protection' against military reprisal.

If we are going to talk about numbers, let us remember that over 2000 rockets have been fired into Israel since the start of the conflict.

From The Guardian
'The asymmetry between a well-resourced and equipped professional state army and paramilitary groups that have been operating under siege conditions for seven years or more is clear in this conflict. Even so, the IDF has encountered fiercer fighting than it expected on the ground.

"We have to admit we were facing good fighters, very well equipped with sophisticated weapons systems, accurate weapons, heavy weapons including mortars, booby traps," a senior military source told the Guardian after the battle of Shujai'iya, Israel's bloodiest assault in the two-week Gaza conflict. "It was very difficult fighting. It's very difficult for us to surprise them. They were simply waiting for us."

He said Hamas had the advantage of knowing when and where Israeli ground forces would strike following warnings given to civilians to evacuate specified areas by given deadlines. Hamas fighters hid in apartment buildings ready to ambush the IDF. They had also booby-trapped buildings and tunnels.'

You can believe what the press says or choose not to, of course. There seems to be a predisposition on this thread to believe press reports about the conflict so maybe this particular article will be of interest.

It goes on:
'Israeli forces have discovered a much more extensive network of tunnels than expected. The labyrinth of interconnected passages, bunkers, command centres, weapons stores and underground rocket-launching sites, with multiple shafts, has been dubbed Lower Gaza by some. Hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete have been used for construction of tunnels, some of which are 30m below ground and run for several miles.'

Interesting to note how much concrete there is available for tunnels but apparently because of the blockade there is none available for homes, schools, hospitals and other infrastructure; and even with all the tunnels built from all that concrete there is still so little (allegedly) by way of medical supplies, etc. for ordinary Gaza residents. Yet the IDF encounters anti-tank missiles and rocket propelled grenades, etc.

That sort of hardware costs a good deal of money.

mathanxiety · 24/07/2014 19:53

Backinthering Thu 24-Jul-14 19:47:32
So given how densely populated Gaza is, where do you suggest Hamas launch rockets from?

Your question assumes it is necessary to launch rockets.

Backinthering · 24/07/2014 19:57

I'm not commenting on my personal view of the necessity of firing rockets. I'm simply pointing out there isn't anywhere to fire them from that isn't densely populated.

wordsmithsforever · 24/07/2014 19:58

And if they do stop Math, then they're left with "peace" and we all know what a crappy peace that is for the Palestinians.

Not to mention that if any of us (God forbid) had lost children in a similar way to what we've seen in the last few days, well in the words of that Lib Dem MP, we might be ready to fire rockets into Israel too. I'd like to think I could summon up the courage I see in people like Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish (see but who knows?

wordsmithsforever · 24/07/2014 20:00

It looks very much to me as if Hamas counts on the existence of the dense population as some sort of I'll use the word 'protection' against military reprisal.

I doubt it Math, I think everyone knows the IDF is prepared to kill children.

Backinthering · 24/07/2014 20:00

I'm afraid I don't find IDF spokespeople to be particularly credible sources of information.
I think I'll continue to draw my conclusions from Gaza-bases journalists.

edamsavestheday · 24/07/2014 20:08

My maths isn't great this time of day, but with 2m people in 140 square miles, is that 14,285 people per square mile?

somewheresafe · 24/07/2014 20:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mathanxiety · 24/07/2014 20:25

Backinthering:
Actually, maybe there is a choice as to the siting of rocket launchers after all:

Map showing population distribution in Gaza.

It looks as if Hamas chooses its launching sites carefully, unless 'built up areas' are not in any way similar to that shown in the photo I posted.

I hope that the Gaza-based journos are not the sort of professionals on the ground who reported on 'Jeningrad' casualties about ten years ago.

Here is a photo of lots of concrete under the ground.

Wordsmithforever,
If stopping leads to 'peace' and peace is not satisfactory, then what is their aim at the end of the day?
Are they willing to absorb unlimited numbers of casualties in order to achieve whatever sort of peace they would like to see?

somewheresafe · 24/07/2014 20:29

Math do you believe Gazans should continue to live under siege? Please try and answer honestly without bringing Ireland into it!

Palestine wants the siege lifted. Do you agree that this is a reasonable request? That they should not be caged in a concentration camp?

mathanxiety · 24/07/2014 20:34

Please try to ask your questions honestly without reference to 'concentration camps'?

Unless your contribution to discussion is intentionally the shedding of more heat than light, that is.