with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

[ssd]

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

Yruapita - lots of countries (including Germany, Spain, Ireland) have rules that allow those who have historic connections to obtain citizenship. Jews have a right to return because Israel was set up as a haven for refugees, and wanted to make it clear that no Jews would be turned away (as the Western states did repeatedly during WWII). Israel has also taken plenty of Vietnamese boat-people, and many others who are very questionably Jewish.

If Israel abolished the law of return, people would say that as it is no longer a haven for Jewish refugees, it should be abolished.

Note that the the Palestinians intend to introduce their own law of return. is that Apartheid?

Pangurban- one Jewish grandparent is enough, even if it doesn't make you Jewish yourself.

I am entitled to comment on what you say, math, especially when it is malicious lies or is intended to derail the thread.

Much as you might wish to, you do not have the right to control what I say.

Unrealhousewife and other supporters of Israeli crime, please stop using deflection techniques, we are not stupid. Stop trying to derail the thread. I haven't read so much nonsense in a long time.

As Shinesmile says, there are people who do not wish us to discuss Israel's actions, and so they make a deliberate effort to interrupt and derail such discussions, for example by malicious abuse or making up things about other posters, or by referring to unsavoury acts performed by other nations or groups.

Pangurban, the Army definitely was not an impartial referee.
It learned the lesson from the policy that involved massive infringement of human and civil rights in 1971 and 72 that the way forward was intelligence, and not .

They very successfully infiltrated the PIRA and other republican organisations, while at the same time using loyalist groups for their own purposes. It is alleged that members of SF were among those who visited the Elm Guest House (freedom fighters are only human after all) and if that is the case, then no doubt their visits there were duly noted and appropriate use made of whatever information gleaned. A dirty war indeed.
And I agree, there is no doubt that there is plenty to hide, on every side.

Some posters here are not interested in the details about counterinsurgency in NI despite the very obvious parallels with the Israeli Palestinian conflict and the similar ethical quandaries. There is apparently no interest in the fact that what was done by British forces was done in the name of perhaps 99% of posters on this thread, including note-taking on the sexual preferences and habits of many figures both prominent and obscure who were involved in the conflict.

Instead of expressions of shame (a word bandied around on this thread rather indiscriminately by certain posters) we have accusations of derailment and diversion into 'other topics'..

Meanwhile, talk of apartheid (a Boer word, originating in South Africa) is perfectly acceptable because it suits one particular agenda.

Would it be ok to talk about apartheid in the Northern Ireland context or would that be considered diversion and derailment?

Would British posters here like a short history of the B Specials, a brief synopsis of how it came to be that in 1968 one section of the NI community felt that only a Civil Rights movement modelled on that of Martin Luther King in the US could hope to improve the lot of about 40% of the population? Successive British governments turned a blind eye to what Unionist politicians did in the name of loyalty to Britain.

Shinesmile - can you show me any deflection in my posts? I've generally just answered queries. Or do you consider it deflection that I pointed out that many countries in the west allow some people fast-track citizenship?

...and not the approach that involved 'wrecking little homes with scorn'.

Is this the thread about Israel?

mathanxiety - also worth mentioning that the Black & Tans, who were recognised as a fairly brutal lot in NI, formed much of the Palestine Police during and after WWII, and then went on to commit various atrocities against the Mau Mau (admittedly noting compared to what the Mau Mau were doing to ordinary Kenyans themselves).

Yes, I think it is.

Someone should go and start a new thread about the history of Ireland.

Yruapita asks what was the Israeli offer for peace... well there were the various Camp David and Oslo accords for starters. Despite the various nuances of these negotiations, these are generally characterised as "land for peace" offers, granting an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza in return for peaceful co-existence with Israel.

I'd love to hear the Palestinian proposals for peace (correction: ones that don't rely on the obliteration of Israel that is. Not too peaceful that one).

PigletJohn laughs long and hard at the suggestion that Israel would ever retreat from the occupied territories and remove its settlers. But that is exactly what it did do, in Gaza, in 2005.

Both sides treat negotiations as all-or-nothing, with little room for negotiation. I don't really blame them, as it is an all-or-nothing situation for both nations. But jaw-jaw is better than war-war.

remind me, sm, was that 2% of the then total of illegal settlements (colonies)?

And remind me, how many new illegal settlements (colonies) have been built since then?

Not nearly the same SamG. The furthest back you can claim Irish citizenship by descent is by at one grandparent coming from or having certain residency in Ireland. Or in other very restricted cases including a grand-parent. This entitlement is not merely based on ethnicity. You would have to have documentation for this. Saying I have may have someone in my ancestry who maybe came from this area (possibly) thousands of years ago because I am Jewish is different. In that case according to dna, more than 62% of Icelandic women and 20% of Icelandic men would have entitlement to Irish citizenship or Gaelic Scottish citizenship (GB, I guess) from half that time frame. It isn't about ancient origins.

Don't think descendents of Aussies and Kiwis who can trace their ancestors to England hundreds of years ago can claim British citizenship and they have documentation.

PigletJohn Thu 24-Jul-14 16:26:32
"I am entitled to comment on what you say, math, especially when it is malicious lies..."

If you believe my posts transgress the MN guidelines either in content or style, then you are entitled to report them.

If however, you merely disagree with my posts, then you need to accept that you are not god and actually, other people are allowed to disagree with you.

The rest is laughable:
Much as you might wish to, you do not have the right to control what I say.

'...there are people who do not wish us to discuss Israel's actions, and so they make a deliberate effort to interrupt and derail such discussions, for example by malicious abuse or making up things about other posters, or by referring to unsavoury acts performed by other nations or groups.'

Because it looks very much as if you want me to stop posting about a vicious war against terror fought by Britain on your behalf. (Or 'unsavoury acts' as you prefer to think of many decades of brutalisation of a civilian population).

Would I be right to infer that it seems you feel you have a right to insist I post only on matters you want me to post about?

My suggestion to you is that you ponder this:
You do not have the right to control what I say.

'look out, pang, she's reeling you in'

Do you have an objection to the content or style of my post on the vicious war fought on your behalf by successive governments of yours, PigletJohn?

Or do you think Pangurban needs help because she can't form her own conclusions about posts on this thread?

Are you suggesting that I am not entitled to comment on what you say, math, especially when it is malicious lies?

Of course I am. You do not have the right to control what I say.

Now you allege that I wish to stop you posting about other topics. Certainly not. That is an untruth. You can write as much as you want about Irish history, vaccination, gardening, cookery, decorating and I am sure no-one will stand in your way. You might do best, though, not to write about cookery on a vaccination thread, or about gardening on an Irish history thread.

Pangurban - you have to show that you have a Jewish grandparent. Because there wasn't a state of Israel 100 years ago, you could scarcely require that people show their grandparents' passports. There is pressure from some of the national religious in Israel to restrict the right to people who are actually Jewish, but it is considered sacrosanct, so unlikely to change

Piglet, is it me you are accusing of making up things about other posters?

Not to my knowledge.

You are not, I think, a person who has described another poster, without an anti-Semitic bone in their body, of being an anti-Semite, and supporting violent attacks on Jews, and suggested that they have Nazi links?

Then I would have no reason to accuse you of such a thing.

I think it would be great to be able to discuss Israel's actions here. I'm sure many overseas supporters of Israel (Jewish or not) feel uneasy about what's going on. It would be good to be able to talk about that openly.

However, it's impossible to have a discussion when the comments are of a quality such as:

"I met an Israeli couple on holiday and they said they saw the Arabs as inferior."

"Israel is inhumane and cruel"
"My Jewish friends on facebook just post Israeli propaganda"
"They grow up hating them and then they get guns and want to kill them"
"You're all brainwashed."

(Apologies for slight para-phrasing but this is gist)

I mean, if I said this about any other group - and I could quite easily (if I were stupid):

"Syria is inhumane and cruel". "
"I met an Iranian and he said "it's a shame Hitler couldn't finish the job"
"My Muslim friends just post good stuff about Muslims. They don't mention Lee Rigby or anything like that."
"They grow up hating women and then they rape them. And there's no law against rape in marriage etc.etc"
"The Russians are commiting genocide. etc. It's a holocaust.

you would say....bloody hell, this is not a discussion. You would be right to say, erm, what are you contributing to the debate other than generalizing on race and escalating bad feeling?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/23/british-jews-gaza-conflict-jewish-community

www.ibtimes.co.uk/syria-civil-war-bloodiest-48-hours-sees-700-killed-isis-gain-influence-1457596

Sam, the infamously undisciplined Black and Tans (and the Auxiliary Division) are remembered throughout the entire island but moreso in the south where they were inflicted on the population from 1920 to 1922.

Their stock in trade was arbitrary reprisals against the civilian population for attacks on British forces and the police, most notably the sacking of the city of Cork in December 1920, an attack that left much of the city centre destroyed. Tuam, Trim, Balbriggan, Templemore and Thurles were similarly destroyed.

Of course there were also kidnappings, beating and torture of prisoners, burning of houses, crops and stocks of animal fodder, shooting of farm animals, burning of industrial dairy plants and constant harassment of civilians. Some individuals were kidnapped and killed -- a priest and the Lord Mayor of Cork being significant examples.
The government sanctioned the reprisals, but their commander, General Frank Crozier, resigned in 1921 because they had been "used to murder, rob, loot, and burn up the innocent because they could not catch the few guilty on the run".

The force was dreamed up by Winston Churchill who considered the measures against insurgency both right and necessary to maintain British grip on an island conquered and then colonised (with settlements - 'plantations' - and settlers and muskets to protect them) over the course of the previous few hundred years.

As Sam points out, the force was shipped to Palestine after calling it quits in Ireland, with a few lessons learned.

The 'Tans' and the Auxiliaries bore many similarities to the freikorps that roamed Germany during the same time period beating up commies.

Israel isn't making it all up as it goes along, and neither is Hamas.

There is plenty of precedent for the approach being taken. Whether it will be successful or not remains to be seen. In the current case, Hamas finds itself isolated from states that would normally support it against Israel, and its efforts appear to be doomed for the time being. The states that would normally support it are preoccupied with the threat posed by ISIS and not inclined to support the extremism of ISIS fellow travellers Hamas as a result.

So what they are doing is essentially choosing suicide/martyrdom in hopes that one day they will be part of the 'whataboutery' that makes their world go round..