Why (or why not) be Christian? Part 2

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing from this thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/5018897-why-or-why-not-be-christian

Anyone welcome to join. 🙂

@heyhohello - seriously? I agree with the stuff Jesus is purported to have said about tolerance, helping others and so forth. I don't agree with anything about god, because there isn't one. Miracles are magicians' tricks.

I don't believe this Jesus existed as the individual depicted: since he hasn't been mentioned in contemporary records from the Romans, Persians or Egyptians, all of whom were big on writing things down, I deduce that he was an idea not a real person (or god). You can be sure that any such writings would've been piously preserved, if any were made.

@Garlicking thank you for clarifying.

@Garlicking if you did for a moment, as a thought experiment, assume Jesus was God in the flesh (as Christians believe) how could what He said about 'tolerance, helping others and so forth' inform you about God?

Actually some of the most intelligent people follow religions. You do realise how small minded you seem with “religion is for people unable to think for themselves” rhetoric.

That’s why I believe in a perennial philosophy- each religion carry’s a truth

Read the Satanic Bible

Looking at the absolute shit show going on in the world, the answer to that is a very clear “no”

Get rid of the old gods and I can 100% guarantee new ones would arise

Well, yes quite.

I was born and raised in a strict Christian household, sent to Christian schools and forced to go to church until 18 (punished if I didn't want to go). My parents churches were all speaking in tongues, falling on the floor under the Holy ghost and precarious visions. It was weird to me as a kid and remains weird to me as an adult. Their church was full of scandals (from pedophiles, people lying their whole lives about being deaf to get attention from their mum and domestic abuse that was brushed under the carpet by pastor...this one was personal as a friend of mine reached out to me about her parents, I told my parents and the pastor told them to pray on it and sided with the husband because divorce is a no no). I think Christianity has a way of using the bible to justify bad behaviour. Christians are also very easily led by whomever is running the church and will blindingly follow whatever their pastor is saying. Not all Christians and not all churches. I'm just saying that of my own experience. I did try church again in adulthood of my own accord and found it was similar elsewhere. Not for me. I don't think anyone joins Christianity unless they were brainwashed as a child or are seriously broken and looking for help.

quite possible but then what would they base their new gods on ? the god of knowledge, the god of science and reason ?

We already have 'follow the science' and 'Trust in the science'. Its very much a belief system at this point as many people do not have the capacity to understand it and so choose to follow it with blind faith. Just as Christians do with God.

We already have many, many disciples of 'the science' walking the earth.

But what is knowledge. I carry an immense amount of knowledge in my head which, for millennia was valued. You wouldn’t probably see it that way.

ah the God of reason and science - you mean Urizen don’t you? Oh the limitations on viewing the world as a measurable entity, all the things you will miss. Read Blake and find out how this pans out.

Yes, without any idea of it’s limitations

mustard>https://www.statista.com/statistics/273004/global-belief-in-god-or-a-supreme-being/

It would suggest this god is a raging hypocrite 🤣 It spends 2,000 years telling its adherents to invade, murder and plunder their neighbours (including rape and slave-taking). Then spends the next 2,000 asking them to be kind, turn the other cheek.

It swings between forcing the followers to suffer painful situations, only helping out when they're at death's door, and paving their way to world domination. For 2,000 years it 'smote' (murdered in creative ways) anyone who even spoke in a way it didn't like, then did a sudden about-face to become all forgiving.

Forgiveness notwithstanding, though, it continues to threaten a hideous apocalypse featuring all kinds of innovative torture for the wrong kind of people. It has said everyone will be the wrong kind, apart from 144,000 descendants of specific tribes, so I don't know why you're all expecting to be let off Or do you get let off after a certain amount of torture? I forget, and can't be bothered to check.

Oh, and it's extremely sexist. There's no suggestion 'Jesus' promoted equality for women. As a good Jew, indeed, how could he?

Which brings me to the question I asked on the earlier thread. Jesus is nowhere depicted as having renounced his faith, so why aren't you all Orthodox Jews? I suppose you'd have had to modify things to account for your New Testament elevation of Jesus to godlike status, but he never told his followers to give up the laws and rituals of Judaism. I guess that makes Christians hypocrites as well!

Finally, this god was a male god who ruled more or less equally with his wife, Asherah. Then he absorbed her so he could become the only god. That definitely is a "Jealous God"!

Bonus snippet: Did you know that, for thousands of years before monotheism, the word for "big god" was El, Il, or Al, depending on dialect? This is still reflected in words such as Elohim, Eluah, Allah, and all the other god-names beginning with El, Il and Al. The "one true god" is, historically, a range of powerful sky gods from a variety of similar polytheistic religions going back even further than Judaism has endured so far. Asherah hung on there, but the Israelite priesthood killed her off - presumably while building their narratives about women's lowliness.

And "why be Christian" replies get a lot of responses from people who don't believe. So why are you only 'observing' it one way round?

Thanks for asking, @Mustardseed86. There's a distinct difference in the tone and volume of replies from each 'side'. The faithful have often seemed to feel attacked by statements of non-faith and by questions; this isn't replicated by atheists. We're also being treated to tracts of scripture that look like evidence to the writer, though it must be obvious that, to us, they are only evidence that some bearded geezer wanted to write them 2,000 years ago. Atheists don't present ancient writings (or any writings, so far) as eternal truths.

Non-believers NEVER argue that something is true because they experienced a vision or another supernatural form of "knowing" about it, yet we've been asked by several of the faithful to accept these as proof of god's reality. I've chosen to read those as intensely private feelings (though I find some of them a bit worrying) and to safely respect that privacy by not replying. I notice I'm in the majority in this.

I'm not saying there is no PARD (polite and reasonable debate, for newer MNers) on these threads. There is, for instance when science and the church has come up for discussion, and I enjoy those parts! The overall content is, though, quite lopsided. Atheists aren't evangelising. I dunno, perhaps we should.

Since I'm still in my Ancient Middle-Eastern phase and some on this thread might be interested in earlier Judaism, here's a photo of a shrine to Jahweh and Asherah, found at Tel Arad in Israel. It dates to the 7th century BC, probably.

The shrine contains two incense pillars and two stele - two altars. Residue from the incense trays was analysed: one contained frankincense; the other cannabis.

Forgot the photo! Posting it now.

Tel Arad altars.

9th century BC, not 7th.

@Kdtym10 "We already have many, many disciples of 'the science' walking the earth.

Yes, without any idea of it’s limitations"

Sorry? The central point of "the science" is that it is aware of its limitations. Science starts with "I don't know"

Just because He say it doesn’t make it true

Many of the troubles around the world have been triggered by religion. Religion and faith has caused so many deaths.

This is more plausible than the standard “because god”, or because I believe it was inspired by the divine and spirit”, or “the bible says so”, as if any of that is some kind of proof anything, because it’s not. Having said that, I really think religion was created by men to control and oppress other men and women, and if any extraterrestrial beings landed on our planet, they would probably be horrified by the fact that we are still practicing these Iron Age and archaic systems of belief, and the problems religion has caused on earth. That’s probably why they haven’t made first contact yet!