Why (or why not) be Christian? Part 2

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing from this thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/5018897-why-or-why-not-be-christian

Anyone welcome to join. 🙂

My bible-bashing grandmother was big on god's mysterious ways. Funny how deities only communicate through obscure guessing games; it's almost as though it were designed to keep a priestly class in power, as the only ones with the ability to interpret "signs".

if God exists, he has to do so outside of time and space so it would make sense sny signs from God do also!

It could well be. If we are on a spiritual journey it would make sense there are some who can and others who cannot yet, interpret signs. It’s the initiated v uninitiated.

Ah great thanks - not come across it (don’t watch tv that much)

@Kdtym10 oh just checked link doesn't work. It's this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rev.(TVV_series)

We’ve had many plagues where the victims were left marked? Was this God unleashing a plague like in the Bible? I'm tickled by the idea of pock marks as a sign from god. Maybe we should get a computer to analyse smallpox, chicken pox and measles rashes - see if they evaluate to a language 😏

Btw, we know what weather incidents cause small animals to rain down, similarly to coloured ("blood") rain. You couldn't expect Bronze Age people to understand this. Nowadays, you'd have to push it back to "God causes freak weather events" which, given current meteorological knowledge, requires a further push back to, I dunno, God causes climate? Could you get him to slow down the warming effects, please?

Well, if we’re saying God is omnipotent then of course he causes climate.

Maybe he thinks we need to wipe ourselves out again - it’s been done before - look at all the flood stories. Maybe he’s sat there watching the polar ice caps melt thinking maybe it will work this time and they will learn their lesson.

I guess what you’re saying is, you don’t just want God to do these things for mankind, you want him to do these things for you, in your lifetime.

No, I don't want anything.

If a God wants me to believe in him, then he better make himself known to me!

Leaving aside the issue of whether the phenomena you mentioned are clear signs or not, what's stopping him from doing an unequivocal announcement once for each generation, or once a century?

My thoughts too.

If he wants us to believe in his existence (which many people do not), then surely he would find a means to let us know of his existence that leaves no doubt. That should be easy for someone so omnipotent as some of you make him out to be

Maybe he has many times but you’ve written it off as someone else?

Bu maybe its part of a persons journey up the divine to discover things for ourselves like a parent let’s a child discover things for itself

Maybe he has many times but you’ve written it off as someone else?

Why on earth would he not make himself known in an unambiguous way?

Why, if he can see that there are many non believers in him, would he not make himself known?

So it's like a parent who demands unquestioning obedience at all times, on pain of hideous suffering if doubted?

If so, followers' claims of a loving god sound very much like fear, or Stockholm syndrome.

Because maybe it’s important for our journey we discover him

No, it’s about giving people the opportunity to reach their potential. I give my child opportunities to find his own way, I don’t demand unquestioning obedience. I give him this space to be himself out of love.

Then why do we need any texts that say what humans should or should not do ? how can we reach potential if god is micro managing ?

Would you tell your kid "DON'T DRINK THE BLEACH" or something more like
[12.1] "A shepherd watered half his flock with clear water from a well. As he became weary of fetching the well water, a passing Amorite merchant said, 'Brother, weary thyself no more. I have here a tanker full of cleansing water, scented with the fruit of the citron. This water cleanses all that it touches, removing both dirt and disease. Observe!'
[12.2] "And the Amorite poured some scented water upon the shepherd's worn and dusty robes. Lo! His robe was cleaned, as white as new linen where the cleansing water had fallen.
[12.3] " 'This will surely water my flock with health,' said the shepherd, "Curing all illness and rendering their wool of a pure white hue.' He paid the Amorite ten pieces of silver for the tanker, and the Amorite went upon his way.
[12.4] "The shepherd then did pour citron-scented water for all his flock, and the sheep did drink their fill.
[12.5] "When the shepherd went to corral his flock in the evening, they came not. He searched the hillsides unto dark, finding every one in throes of death. 'Oh, what have I done?' wailed the forlorn shepherd, 'I have given unto my sheep a cleansing drink, and they are not cleansed but poisoned!' And he rent his breast."

Having wandered off before verse 2 got started, your child has now taken a good swig of bleach. Sitting with her in the ambulance, you say "Well, I did warn you. It's your own fault."

I mean, I hope you're a better parent than God 😛

Well as my child has never drunk bleach, but is fairly free to carve his own path I’d say I have got the balance on that one right.

But then you can do all the right things as a parent and still end up with a kid in jail. I guess that leads you to the parable of the lost sheep.

Where is this even from?

I believe: "The Epic of Gilgamesh," an ancient Mesopotamian epic poem that is considered one of the earliest surviving works of literature. Specifically, the excerpt is from Tablet XII of the standard Akkadian version of the epic.

Perfect reply, @BioHive 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Very very much appreciated.

No, it’s about giving people the opportunity to reach their potential. I give my child opportunities to find his own way, I don’t demand unquestioning obedience.

A child sees and interacts with the parent. A child is physically and emotionally protected by a parent.

God does none of these. On the contrary, God gives us mutated genes that cause cancer, God allows innocent children to die of disease, hunger and wars.

But, most importantly, he does not even reveal himself to be true to many of us. He knows we doubt his existence, so why not reassure us that he is there for us, if he is so 'kind' and 'loving'?

Only in the land of comedy!

I know I’ve discussed this many times on this board. My view of the divine is if he all things he is also everything we, as humans deem bad. Creation exists for the divine to explore itself, which again, would inc things humans see as bad. I’m not of a God=love only persuasion though. I don’t see it as a parent/child relationship. I think we can see it like that from a humans perspective though. Hence we use allegories that play on that relationship- but this isn’t the full reality.