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Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 07:31

Parker231 · 10/03/2024 06:28

Many of the troubles around the world have been triggered by religion. Religion and faith has caused so many deaths.

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correction, religion has been an excuse for many wars. Man’s interpretation of the Divine has caused divide. All these things are the failures of man not because of a Divine power.

There’s a famous quote from the Albigensian crusades “kill them all God will know his own” which,I think, says it all. Religious wars are rarely actually about religion.

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 07:41

Garlicking · 10/03/2024 00:52

It would suggest this god is a raging hypocrite 🤣 It spends 2,000 years telling its adherents to invade, murder and plunder their neighbours (including rape and slave-taking). Then spends the next 2,000 asking them to be kind, turn the other cheek.

It swings between forcing the followers to suffer painful situations, only helping out when they're at death's door, and paving their way to world domination. For 2,000 years it 'smote' (murdered in creative ways) anyone who even spoke in a way it didn't like, then did a sudden about-face to become all forgiving.

Forgiveness notwithstanding, though, it continues to threaten a hideous apocalypse featuring all kinds of innovative torture for the wrong kind of people. It has said everyone will be the wrong kind, apart from 144,000 descendants of specific tribes, so I don't know why you're all expecting to be let off Confused Or do you get let off after a certain amount of torture? I forget, and can't be bothered to check.

Oh, and it's extremely sexist. There's no suggestion 'Jesus' promoted equality for women. As a good Jew, indeed, how could he?

Which brings me to the question I asked on the earlier thread. Jesus is nowhere depicted as having renounced his faith, so why aren't you all Orthodox Jews? I suppose you'd have had to modify things to account for your New Testament elevation of Jesus to godlike status, but he never told his followers to give up the laws and rituals of Judaism. I guess that makes Christians hypocrites as well!

Finally, this god was a male god who ruled more or less equally with his wife, Asherah. Then he absorbed her so he could become the only god. That definitely is a "Jealous God"!

Bonus snippet: Did you know that, for thousands of years before monotheism, the word for "big god" was El, Il, or Al, depending on dialect? This is still reflected in words such as Elohim, Eluah, Allah, and all the other god-names beginning with El, Il and Al. The "one true god" is, historically, a range of powerful sky gods from a variety of similar polytheistic religions going back even further than Judaism has endured so far. Asherah hung on there, but the Israelite priesthood killed her off - presumably while building their narratives about women's lowliness.

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i think we discussed the Jewish point quite a bit in the other thread - I’m with you in the fact I think Christianity should be viewed as a subset of Judaism (actually mystical Judaism is the most likely given Jesus’s actions and esp the leanings and some of the stories of Paul).

Theres quite an in-depth discussion (with many of the same people as in this thread somewhere) about the development of the Canaanite pantheon and El and YHVH somewhere too if you’re interested -you’d find it in the advanced search -I think there’s some links to some academic you tube videos. Let’s talk religion is a good one).

Re the raging v good god you might be interested in the Gnostic Christian dualist tradition where the OT god is the demiurge Yaldaboath who created the physical hell/prison of earth and the good Hod of the NT

NotSoBetty · 10/03/2024 07:41

Redherringfish · 09/03/2024 22:37

people used to believe the earth was the centre of the universe remember the church vs Galileo

"Galileo's support for the heliocentric model brought him into direct conflict with the Catholic Church. Church authorities viewed his ideas as heretical and contradictory to Scripture, particularly passages that seemed to support the geocentric view. Despite Galileo's attempts to reconcile his findings with religious doctrine, his advocacy for heliocentrism challenged the Church's authority and threatened the established order."

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And what about Giordano Bruno, in 1600, burned at the stake for being a heretic, for being a scientific proponent of scientific theories, that were correct, but which went against the church’s teachings. So many others who perished like this.

NotSoBetty · 10/03/2024 07:43

ThursdayTomorrow · 09/03/2024 22:38

Just a pedantic grammar point but God has a capital as it’s a name he’s called, gods pleural doesn’t.

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Only by religious people. I prefer to right in a small g, when referring to this god, as he’s not my god.

Parker231 · 10/03/2024 07:51

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 07:31

correction, religion has been an excuse for many wars. Man’s interpretation of the Divine has caused divide. All these things are the failures of man not because of a Divine power.

There’s a famous quote from the Albigensian crusades “kill them all God will know his own” which,I think, says it all. Religious wars are rarely actually about religion.

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If people hadn’t followed a religion, they wouldn’t have fought over it. Take religion out of the picture and there may have been more peaceful times. The Catholic communities in cities like Belfast and Derry complained of discrimination and unfair treatment by the Protestant-controlled government and police forces.

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 07:56

NotSoBetty · 10/03/2024 07:41

And what about Giordano Bruno, in 1600, burned at the stake for being a heretic, for being a scientific proponent of scientific theories, that were correct, but which went against the church’s teachings. So many others who perished like this.

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As a follower follower of many of the elements grouped under the Western esoteric tradition lm a big fan of Bruno. He was far more than a “scientist” and was persecuted throughout Europe for his heresies. To try and put this as religion v science is rather ridiculous and is devoid of the complexity here.

NotSoBetty · 10/03/2024 07:57

Kdtym10 · 09/03/2024 23:22

Actually some of the most intelligent people follow religions. You do realise how small minded you seem with “religion is for people unable to think for themselves” rhetoric.

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Yeah, in most cases, it’s mind and belief conditioning from birth. For the vast majority of people, religion is an inherited identity name. When Dave, down the street was born, he was instantly assigned a name, a culture, a language, a religion with a manual - the bible, or any other equivalent holy text), life components that have shaped his fundamental identity, ever since. He didn’t make an informed choice about that, about his religion, no matter how intelligent or mega accomplished he has become in his life thus far. He was just told, from the day that he was born, that it is the “truth”, and so believes it be so, until he dies. It’s all in the conditioning!!

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 08:02

Parker231 · 10/03/2024 07:51

If people hadn’t followed a religion, they wouldn’t have fought over it. Take religion out of the picture and there may have been more peaceful times. The Catholic communities in cities like Belfast and Derry complained of discrimination and unfair treatment by the Protestant-controlled government and police forces.

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Lol, no they would have fought over land, over control of people, over resources, over access to trade. In fact all the things that they were really fighting about. Think about the above quote re the war with the Cathars ( as we view it).

The trouble is people don’t understand how religion was so interwoven in society - they grasp on tge religious facade to try and justify claims when the actual position was a million times more complicated and nuanced!

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 08:06

NotSoBetty · 10/03/2024 07:57

Yeah, in most cases, it’s mind and belief conditioning from birth. For the vast majority of people, religion is an inherited identity name. When Dave, down the street was born, he was instantly assigned a name, a culture, a language, a religion with a manual - the bible, or any other equivalent holy text), life components that have shaped his fundamental identity, ever since. He didn’t make an informed choice about that, about his religion, no matter how intelligent or mega accomplished he has become in his life thus far. He was just told, from the day that he was born, that it is the “truth”, and so believes it be so, until he dies. It’s all in the conditioning!!

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Might be true in some cases. But why hasn’t super intelligent Dave rejected it? If your view is correct why are there several people here raised as Christian who then reject it? You seem to be saying Dave is stuck with what he’s born into.

As a perenialist I can understand an argument that someone who sees the spiritual might be more predisposed to one religion or another, But I don’t think This accounts for whether they are spiritual.

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 08:07

NotSoBetty · 10/03/2024 07:43

Only by religious people. I prefer to right in a small g, when referring to this god, as he’s not my god.

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It’s irrelevant whether he’s your god or not. It’s still a capital G. If you prefer you could call him YHVH

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 08:09

Garlicking · 10/03/2024 04:41

Thanks for asking, @Mustardseed86. There's a distinct difference in the tone and volume of replies from each 'side'. The faithful have often seemed to feel attacked by statements of non-faith and by questions; this isn't replicated by atheists. We're also being treated to tracts of scripture that look like evidence to the writer, though it must be obvious that, to us, they are only evidence that some bearded geezer wanted to write them 2,000 years ago. Atheists don't present ancient writings (or any writings, so far) as eternal truths.

Non-believers NEVER argue that something is true because they experienced a vision or another supernatural form of "knowing" about it, yet we've been asked by several of the faithful to accept these as proof of god's reality. I've chosen to read those as intensely private feelings (though I find some of them a bit worrying) and to safely respect that privacy by not replying. I notice I'm in the majority in this.

I'm not saying there is no PARD (polite and reasonable debate, for newer MNers) on these threads. There is, for instance when science and the church has come up for discussion, and I enjoy those parts! The overall content is, though, quite lopsided. Atheists aren't evangelising. I dunno, perhaps we should.

That’s because each is looking at the world through a different lens

Parker231 · 10/03/2024 08:10

@Kdtym10 religious extremism causes conflict.

Parker231 · 10/03/2024 08:12

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 08:07

It’s irrelevant whether he’s your god or not. It’s still a capital G. If you prefer you could call him YHVH

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It’s lower case god. Capitalising assumes there is only one god.

Lalupalina · 10/03/2024 08:17

We already have 'follow the science' and 'Trust in the science'. Its very much a belief system at this point as many people do not have the capacity to understand it and so choose to follow it with blind faith. Just as Christians do with God.

This is so wrong and disingenuous.

Science starts with NOT knowing. It tries to understand, to learn and look for evidence.it tests hypotheses. And most importantly, it admits to NOT knowing everything (yet)

So no, scientists do not follow 'with blind faith'!!

ElizaMulvil · 10/03/2024 08:18

Didn't Jesus say ' it's harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle'?

How do all the Church Leaders reconcile this with their lives? Do we think eg the King is lying awake every night, wondering how he can give away all his £billions and enter heaven after death or does he just not really believe it applies to him at all? 'Because he has been chosen by God.'

Proof surely that religion is all about political control of 'lesser' beings who role in life is to obey and endure. The 'great and good' can do what they like because they will be forgiven if they confess to their sins on their death bed and pop off to Heaven and eternal happiness.

It's the hypocrisy which is so offensive.

Lalupalina · 10/03/2024 08:23

Non-believers NEVER argue that something is true because they experienced a vision or another supernatural form of "knowing" about it, yet we've been asked by several of the faithful to accept these as proof of god's reality.

Yes, I agree. You telling us to blindly accept some 'feeling' of faith as the truth is absurd.

When other explanations are offered (eg evolution), then they simply get dismissed with 'God knows better' !

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 08:33

Lalupalina · 10/03/2024 08:17

We already have 'follow the science' and 'Trust in the science'. Its very much a belief system at this point as many people do not have the capacity to understand it and so choose to follow it with blind faith. Just as Christians do with God.

This is so wrong and disingenuous.

Science starts with NOT knowing. It tries to understand, to learn and look for evidence.it tests hypotheses. And most importantly, it admits to NOT knowing everything (yet)

So no, scientists do not follow 'with blind faith'!!

I think you have the wrong end of the stick here. I think the poster is basically saying science is a lens through which the world is viewed. It holds certain assumptions such as everything is measurable and can be rationalised, that truth is objective and replicable. It is not saying anything about the details found within this ideology

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 08:40

ElizaMulvil · 10/03/2024 08:18

Didn't Jesus say ' it's harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle'?

How do all the Church Leaders reconcile this with their lives? Do we think eg the King is lying awake every night, wondering how he can give away all his £billions and enter heaven after death or does he just not really believe it applies to him at all? 'Because he has been chosen by God.'

Proof surely that religion is all about political control of 'lesser' beings who role in life is to obey and endure. The 'great and good' can do what they like because they will be forgiven if they confess to their sins on their death bed and pop off to Heaven and eternal happiness.

It's the hypocrisy which is so offensive.

The phrase means it’s impossible for someone who clings to the physical to enter heaven. The riches aren’t the problem it’s how people view them

NotCute · 10/03/2024 08:43

ElizaMulvil · 10/03/2024 08:18

Didn't Jesus say ' it's harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle'?

How do all the Church Leaders reconcile this with their lives? Do we think eg the King is lying awake every night, wondering how he can give away all his £billions and enter heaven after death or does he just not really believe it applies to him at all? 'Because he has been chosen by God.'

Proof surely that religion is all about political control of 'lesser' beings who role in life is to obey and endure. The 'great and good' can do what they like because they will be forgiven if they confess to their sins on their death bed and pop off to Heaven and eternal happiness.

It's the hypocrisy which is so offensive.

I don't think Jesus would be too impressed by either the King or the monarchy tbh.

I very much doubt that the King has much concern for what Jesus may or may not think, either.

NotCute · 10/03/2024 08:46

Lalupalina · 10/03/2024 08:17

We already have 'follow the science' and 'Trust in the science'. Its very much a belief system at this point as many people do not have the capacity to understand it and so choose to follow it with blind faith. Just as Christians do with God.

This is so wrong and disingenuous.

Science starts with NOT knowing. It tries to understand, to learn and look for evidence.it tests hypotheses. And most importantly, it admits to NOT knowing everything (yet)

So no, scientists do not follow 'with blind faith'!!

I'd be quite inclined to agree with you re scientists.

The problem being that the very vast majority of the disciples of science as a belief system, and dare I say, modern day idol, is that they are quite a long way off of being scientists or even scientifically minded. Hence the blind faith.

Which is encouraged tbf, by mantras such as 'follow the science' and 'trust in the science'

Parker231 · 10/03/2024 08:46

ElizaMulvil · 10/03/2024 08:18

Didn't Jesus say ' it's harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle'?

How do all the Church Leaders reconcile this with their lives? Do we think eg the King is lying awake every night, wondering how he can give away all his £billions and enter heaven after death or does he just not really believe it applies to him at all? 'Because he has been chosen by God.'

Proof surely that religion is all about political control of 'lesser' beings who role in life is to obey and endure. The 'great and good' can do what they like because they will be forgiven if they confess to their sins on their death bed and pop off to Heaven and eternal happiness.

It's the hypocrisy which is so offensive.

Heaven and hell don’t exist - they are concepts set out to scare people into worshipping a god with the threat of what will happen to you if you don’t behave a certain way. So wrong

NotSoBetty · 10/03/2024 08:47

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 07:56

As a follower follower of many of the elements grouped under the Western esoteric tradition lm a big fan of Bruno. He was far more than a “scientist” and was persecuted throughout Europe for his heresies. To try and put this as religion v science is rather ridiculous and is devoid of the complexity here.

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Religion killed him for his scientific work and beliefs- which were actually grounded in provable reality, because it went against church teachings, and he refused to go back on what he believed.

NotCute · 10/03/2024 08:50

I will agree that most church leaders and clergy are as far from the epitome of Christianity as it is possible to be....

They have bastardised the teachings of Jesus, which is convenient.

NotSoBetty · 10/03/2024 08:56

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 08:07

It’s irrelevant whether he’s your god or not. It’s still a capital G. If you prefer you could call him YHVH

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No, it’s fine. I’ll stick with the small g. Thanks

Kdtym10 · 10/03/2024 09:35

NotSoBetty · 10/03/2024 08:56

No, it’s fine. I’ll stick with the small g. Thanks

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It is up to you if you want to disregard the rules of the English language in an attempt to make an irrelevant point.