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Philosophy/religion

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Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

1000 replies

VincitVeritas1 · 06/12/2023 17:45

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
heyhohello · 22/02/2024 21:45

Thanks for the recommendation- no I’ve not read it but I certainly will - what do you think of it?

@Kdtym10, lots of interesting themes. Languages, power & exploitation. The characters are compelling too. 🙂

VincitVeritas1 · 25/02/2024 16:50

Please: What can you do if you are genuinely worried you won't make it to Heaven?

@Fetchthevet I don't usually, but would you like me to PM you?

Just had another look and honestly, I think your list of behaviours, which comes off as an after thought, contains things far, far more important than your list of things that are absolutely key to you. You've got your priorities so very far wrong.

@pointythings I didn’t say the other list was less important, I thought that was self explanatory - they're just far less easy to pin down.

The other list is largely made up by American evangelists.

@Kdtym10 Again, you seem to be implying I can’t think for myself. I have decided not to do these things, it hasn’t been influenced by anyone else.

Mine is much shorter:1) Do no harm

@pointythings This sounds very like Galatians 5:13-14:

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbour as yourself.”

And just as there are death metal lovers who are the kindest, gentlest people (they do tend to be sweethearts), so there are Mozart lovers who are raving hateful awful people. Judging people by music, clothes, tattoos etc is shallow.

Where did I say I was judging others? I don’t see someone covered in tattoos and piercings, eating a rare steak and think, “He must be a wrong-un!” while clutching my pearls. 😆

@Kdtym10

I’m sorry? I still can’t see where you have explained why the Beast cannot be Nero. I’m not asking you to explain again, just link your original explanation as I’d like to understand your reasoning.

The identity of the Antichrist will be revealed/ made known at some point. Nero did not do the things that Revelation lays out that the Antichrist will do, i.e.:

Die and come back to life
Oppose and exalt himself above every god and proclaim to be God in the temple of God (in Jerusalem)
Reign over Israel for exactly 42 months
Rule and be worshipped by the entire world
Be accompanied by someone who performs miracles, signs and wonders and sets up an image of the Antichrist which they will give “life” to.
Force everyone (globally) to take a mark, without which buying an selling anything will be impossible
Order anyone who refuses to take this mark, to be killed by beheading.
Gather with other world leaders to wage war against God all who oppose his regime.
Finally, Nero died by suicide. He was not cast into the Lake of Fire, which is how the Antichrist will meet his end.

I’m not sure why you think it’s impossible to be Christ, can you please expand.

Christ consciousness is reaching an enlightenment on an intellectual, emotional and spiritual level and has been reached across time and geography, eg the Buddha.

I wondered when you would bring up the phrase “Christ Consciousness”! It is impossible to become Christ, because Christ is an individual, not a state of being. Christ is the Messiah, one third of the Holy Trinity, God in flesh.

Theres plenty of scholarly discussion about Paul being a Jewish mystic, I’ll find some links so not really that far fetched. Would this cause you a problem if he was?

Yes, since mysticism and being a true follower of Jesus are completely incompatible, but I don’t believe there is any real basis for believing it.

well even the additions you mention to the written word are still really only experience through the written word. If they exist independently why bother with the bible.

No, they work in harmony together. Man shall not live by bread alone.

Peter was known to have followers in Syria, he also emphasised the Jewish nature of Jesus.,The birth story of Jesus revolves heavily around the idea of fulfilment of Jewish lineage snd Prophecy. There are echos of Daniel in the appearance of the magi from the east and Exodus with the slaughter of the innocent.

I agree with this, but why would emphasising the Jewishness be an issue?

Why do you have an issue with working Sundays? Surely that should be Saturday as God instructed.

Saturday was indeed the original Sabbath, as is still observed by religious Jews today, during Shabbat. However, I believe that observing the Sabbath is one of the laws which Jesus fulfilled when He came to earth (see Matthew 12). Sunday has been traditionally set aside as a day of rest, worship and contemplation as it is the day Jesus rose from the dead.

@pointythings

Well, this lady clearly suffers from the zeal of the converted. Zealots don't give good advice.

I don’t see being zealous as a bad thing. One of Jesus’ disciples was known as Simon the Zealot. I am in no way a new convert and agree with the advice she gave in the video.

The focus on crystals also made me laugh. I mean, pointed crystal necklaces? Does she know anything about chemistry? Geology? All the reasons why crystals are the shape they are relate to the laws of nature. They are created that way, if you will.
I mean, an amethyst left in its natural (pointed crystalline) shape = occult, but that same amethyst, polished into cabochon shape and set into a jewelled cross = fiiiiiine.

Doreen said, “I realise that God made crystals and crystals are even named in the Bible. But, the way we use crystals is what hinges upon whether it is appreciating God’s creation and nature or idolatry that breaks God’s commandments... Crystals are actually neutral, God created them and they are named in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, but they [bracelets] are often touted as having magical powers. That’s something that you’ll need to pray about, be honest with yourself and with the Holy Spirit, whether these [bracelets] are an idol to you or not.”

So crystals (like aromatherapy oils) are not inherently bad and are a beautiful part of God’s creation. It’s completely fine if someone wants to keep them for this reason. It’s a different matter if they are given spiritual significance, used in spiritual practice and assigned special mystical or metaphysical properties.

I also have and wear a T shirt that says 'Science doesn't care about your beliefs'. If people can wear Jesus merch, I can wear the opposite...I would never wear a shirt saying things about sky fairies though.

Do you also have one of those Darwin fish symbols on your car? It does make me chuckle that people think Christians care they’re poking fun at the original ichthys.

But what is anti Christian?

@Kdtym10 That is down to the individual to determine, aided by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The content of the lyrics, rather than the style of music or artist, is what I usually use to decide whether or not to listen to a particular song. Same for drinking alcohol and choosing how to dress.

No one is going to go out and burn their Tarot cards because you shared that video.

Stranger things have happened @DreamVortex and no, I’m not Doreen.

interesting she still uses the name “virtue” is she holding herself out to be something she is not. sure the Bible said something about teachers and false prophets. She’s certainly not taking Paul’s advise re Women to “ be silent”

@Kdtym10 You’ve taken Paul’s teaching completely out of context here and yes, I’m sure Doreen Virtue is probably her stage name, but that’s what she was known as in her former life as a New Age teacher. It makes sense to keep it and remain recognisable in order to witness to the people still in those circles.

OP posts:
Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 10:40

VincitVeritas1 · 25/02/2024 16:50

Please: What can you do if you are genuinely worried you won't make it to Heaven?

@Fetchthevet I don't usually, but would you like me to PM you?

Just had another look and honestly, I think your list of behaviours, which comes off as an after thought, contains things far, far more important than your list of things that are absolutely key to you. You've got your priorities so very far wrong.

@pointythings I didn’t say the other list was less important, I thought that was self explanatory - they're just far less easy to pin down.

The other list is largely made up by American evangelists.

@Kdtym10 Again, you seem to be implying I can’t think for myself. I have decided not to do these things, it hasn’t been influenced by anyone else.

Mine is much shorter:1) Do no harm

@pointythings This sounds very like Galatians 5:13-14:

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbour as yourself.”

And just as there are death metal lovers who are the kindest, gentlest people (they do tend to be sweethearts), so there are Mozart lovers who are raving hateful awful people. Judging people by music, clothes, tattoos etc is shallow.

Where did I say I was judging others? I don’t see someone covered in tattoos and piercings, eating a rare steak and think, “He must be a wrong-un!” while clutching my pearls. 😆

@Kdtym10

I’m sorry? I still can’t see where you have explained why the Beast cannot be Nero. I’m not asking you to explain again, just link your original explanation as I’d like to understand your reasoning.

The identity of the Antichrist will be revealed/ made known at some point. Nero did not do the things that Revelation lays out that the Antichrist will do, i.e.:

Die and come back to life
Oppose and exalt himself above every god and proclaim to be God in the temple of God (in Jerusalem)
Reign over Israel for exactly 42 months
Rule and be worshipped by the entire world
Be accompanied by someone who performs miracles, signs and wonders and sets up an image of the Antichrist which they will give “life” to.
Force everyone (globally) to take a mark, without which buying an selling anything will be impossible
Order anyone who refuses to take this mark, to be killed by beheading.
Gather with other world leaders to wage war against God all who oppose his regime.
Finally, Nero died by suicide. He was not cast into the Lake of Fire, which is how the Antichrist will meet his end.

I’m not sure why you think it’s impossible to be Christ, can you please expand.

Christ consciousness is reaching an enlightenment on an intellectual, emotional and spiritual level and has been reached across time and geography, eg the Buddha.

I wondered when you would bring up the phrase “Christ Consciousness”! It is impossible to become Christ, because Christ is an individual, not a state of being. Christ is the Messiah, one third of the Holy Trinity, God in flesh.

Theres plenty of scholarly discussion about Paul being a Jewish mystic, I’ll find some links so not really that far fetched. Would this cause you a problem if he was?

Yes, since mysticism and being a true follower of Jesus are completely incompatible, but I don’t believe there is any real basis for believing it.

well even the additions you mention to the written word are still really only experience through the written word. If they exist independently why bother with the bible.

No, they work in harmony together. Man shall not live by bread alone.

Peter was known to have followers in Syria, he also emphasised the Jewish nature of Jesus.,The birth story of Jesus revolves heavily around the idea of fulfilment of Jewish lineage snd Prophecy. There are echos of Daniel in the appearance of the magi from the east and Exodus with the slaughter of the innocent.

I agree with this, but why would emphasising the Jewishness be an issue?

Why do you have an issue with working Sundays? Surely that should be Saturday as God instructed.

Saturday was indeed the original Sabbath, as is still observed by religious Jews today, during Shabbat. However, I believe that observing the Sabbath is one of the laws which Jesus fulfilled when He came to earth (see Matthew 12). Sunday has been traditionally set aside as a day of rest, worship and contemplation as it is the day Jesus rose from the dead.

@pointythings

Well, this lady clearly suffers from the zeal of the converted. Zealots don't give good advice.

I don’t see being zealous as a bad thing. One of Jesus’ disciples was known as Simon the Zealot. I am in no way a new convert and agree with the advice she gave in the video.

The focus on crystals also made me laugh. I mean, pointed crystal necklaces? Does she know anything about chemistry? Geology? All the reasons why crystals are the shape they are relate to the laws of nature. They are created that way, if you will.
I mean, an amethyst left in its natural (pointed crystalline) shape = occult, but that same amethyst, polished into cabochon shape and set into a jewelled cross = fiiiiiine.

Doreen said, “I realise that God made crystals and crystals are even named in the Bible. But, the way we use crystals is what hinges upon whether it is appreciating God’s creation and nature or idolatry that breaks God’s commandments... Crystals are actually neutral, God created them and they are named in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, but they [bracelets] are often touted as having magical powers. That’s something that you’ll need to pray about, be honest with yourself and with the Holy Spirit, whether these [bracelets] are an idol to you or not.”

So crystals (like aromatherapy oils) are not inherently bad and are a beautiful part of God’s creation. It’s completely fine if someone wants to keep them for this reason. It’s a different matter if they are given spiritual significance, used in spiritual practice and assigned special mystical or metaphysical properties.

I also have and wear a T shirt that says 'Science doesn't care about your beliefs'. If people can wear Jesus merch, I can wear the opposite...I would never wear a shirt saying things about sky fairies though.

Do you also have one of those Darwin fish symbols on your car? It does make me chuckle that people think Christians care they’re poking fun at the original ichthys.

But what is anti Christian?

@Kdtym10 That is down to the individual to determine, aided by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The content of the lyrics, rather than the style of music or artist, is what I usually use to decide whether or not to listen to a particular song. Same for drinking alcohol and choosing how to dress.

No one is going to go out and burn their Tarot cards because you shared that video.

Stranger things have happened @DreamVortex and no, I’m not Doreen.

interesting she still uses the name “virtue” is she holding herself out to be something she is not. sure the Bible said something about teachers and false prophets. She’s certainly not taking Paul’s advise re Women to “ be silent”

@Kdtym10 You’ve taken Paul’s teaching completely out of context here and yes, I’m sure Doreen Virtue is probably her stage name, but that’s what she was known as in her former life as a New Age teacher. It makes sense to keep it and remain recognisable in order to witness to the people still in those circles.

Haven’t got time to respond to all of this so will be back later.

@Fetchthevet in the nicest way please don’t be sucked into any extreme forms of Christianity on the internet. I suspect the purpose of the thread was to locate people who are struggling. Some forms of Christianity work on the basis of members gathering recruits. Steer clear of them. My therapy recommendation still stands but if you want to explore your fears in a Christian context please speak to a local vicar (CofE) Methodist minister of catholic priest. Your fears can potentially make you quite vulnerable any of those people will be glad to chat with you in a more balanced manner.

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 10:47

Re @VincitVeritas1 so which death metal bands have you listened to read the lyrics? What about Christian death metal bands? Do you not have any problems with any one genres of metal? I’m interested in how you made your decisions on what is sinful and what isn’t. What about mixed fibres?

Re Nero, you still aren’t answering the question you might want to look up the Nero Redivivus legend (as I’ve said it’s a common trope) this helps explain Revelations a bit more. I’ll expand later

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 18:32

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 10:47

Re @VincitVeritas1 so which death metal bands have you listened to read the lyrics? What about Christian death metal bands? Do you not have any problems with any one genres of metal? I’m interested in how you made your decisions on what is sinful and what isn’t. What about mixed fibres?

Re Nero, you still aren’t answering the question you might want to look up the Nero Redivivus legend (as I’ve said it’s a common trope) this helps explain Revelations a bit more. I’ll expand later

So to carry on from previous answers. The legend against which John was writing Revelations re Nero is that he would come back again. Index in the 20 years following his death at least 3 people claimed to be Nero. It doesn’t matter whether he carried out any of those things. It was talking about his return. It is the foil to Jesus’s return.

You’re mistaken. Jesus is the individual, Christ is a title
or state. It means anointed one. Anyone can obtain this title in the right situation.

What is your issue with Christ consciousness?

Mustardseed86 · 26/02/2024 21:18

You’re mistaken. Jesus is the individual, Christ is a title or state. It means anointed one. Anyone can obtain this title in the right situation.

The Christ, the Messiah, has a clear and established meaning as you perfectly well know. Why do you feel the need to appropriate it?

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 21:29

Mustardseed86 · 26/02/2024 21:18

You’re mistaken. Jesus is the individual, Christ is a title or state. It means anointed one. Anyone can obtain this title in the right situation.

The Christ, the Messiah, has a clear and established meaning as you perfectly well know. Why do you feel the need to appropriate it?

Actually Judaism (and it is a Jewish concept Christian’s are appropriating) has several other Messiahs (the exact number depends on definition and source) Christianity (named for the Greek take on the Jewish word of Mashiach) happens to pick one of them.

i think Jesus was pretty clear that we could all have the potential to claim this title too.This list might shed some light.

Mustardseed86 · 26/02/2024 21:42

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 21:29

Actually Judaism (and it is a Jewish concept Christian’s are appropriating) has several other Messiahs (the exact number depends on definition and source) Christianity (named for the Greek take on the Jewish word of Mashiach) happens to pick one of them.

i think Jesus was pretty clear that we could all have the potential to claim this title too.This list might shed some light.

Edited

Christians are not appropriating the concept of the Messiah. As you've pointed out yourself, Jesus was Jewish. He claimed to be the Messiah. The NT goes into a lot of detail about the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. He also told the apostles to make disciples of the nations.

Other claimants have nothing to do with this twisting the meaning of the word itself.

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 21:52

Mustardseed86 · 26/02/2024 21:42

Christians are not appropriating the concept of the Messiah. As you've pointed out yourself, Jesus was Jewish. He claimed to be the Messiah. The NT goes into a lot of detail about the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. He also told the apostles to make disciples of the nations.

Other claimants have nothing to do with this twisting the meaning of the word itself.

So why are you not Jewish? Nearly all of those others listed also had followers who also believed they were following the true Messiah. . The success of the Jesus cults (or some of them many fell by the wayside) was purely an accident of history.

I’m not “twisting” anything. I am stating literally what the word means. I am pointing out that Jesus was one of many Jews who have either claimed to be the messiah or whose followers have claimed they were the Messiah,

Just because Christians have claimed the title for Yeshua Ben Josef doesn’t exclude anyone else using it. It’s not trade marked (if it was Yeshua Ben Josefs followers would have been too late).

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 21:58

@Kdtym10, so what things do you feel are part of Christ status as opposed to Jesus' individual 'True Will'? And what things do you think are part of your individual 'True Will' that are different and distinct from how Jesus acted?

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 22:10

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 21:58

@Kdtym10, so what things do you feel are part of Christ status as opposed to Jesus' individual 'True Will'? And what things do you think are part of your individual 'True Will' that are different and distinct from how Jesus acted?

Sorry, I’m not sure exactly what you mean. Can you elaborate?

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:14

@Kdtym10 as you claimed upthread you believe everybody can achieve ''Christ status' through following their own 'True Will'. Rather than following Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

So what is different concerning your own 'True Will' and Jesus'? How do you act differently from Him?

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:18

How do you think Jesus would make decisions about the situations in your life differently from how you do? @Kdtym10? What is the unique significance of your own 'Christ status'?

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 22:18

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:14

@Kdtym10 as you claimed upthread you believe everybody can achieve ''Christ status' through following their own 'True Will'. Rather than following Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

So what is different concerning your own 'True Will' and Jesus'? How do you act differently from Him?

Everyone has their own purpose/True will. Jesus had his, I have mine, you have yours. Each acts accordingly in order to fulfil that. This makes them anointed.

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:20

@Kdtym10 and I am asking you how your 'True Will' is different from the will of Jesus?

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 22:20

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:18

How do you think Jesus would make decisions about the situations in your life differently from how you do? @Kdtym10? What is the unique significance of your own 'Christ status'?

I can’t second guess how Jesus would act if he were me, I can’t say how I would act if I were him. My purpose is my business and won’t be shared.

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 22:21

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:20

@Kdtym10 and I am asking you how your 'True Will' is different from the will of Jesus?

I am not willing/able to share that.

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:22

@Kdtym10 not even a little bit of it?

Hurrydash · 26/02/2024 22:25

I really can't get my head around how anyone believes in 'god'?

The universe is a wonderful mystery, but I can't think there is any one omniscient being in control.

Just seems really, really improbable to me.

As regards Jesus, not sure what the hard historical evidence for what was attributed to him is.

But a lot of what he is claimed to have said would improve the world, for sure, if we all took it on board.

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:27

"I can’t second guess how Jesus would act if he were me, I can’t say how I would act if I were him. My purpose is my business and won’t be shared."

@Kdtym10 do believe Jesus is in unity with God? If so Jesus' (True) Will is the same as God's.

Is your 'True Will' different?

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:28

@Kdtym10
That should read 'do you believe..'

Kdtym10 · 26/02/2024 22:32

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:27

"I can’t second guess how Jesus would act if he were me, I can’t say how I would act if I were him. My purpose is my business and won’t be shared."

@Kdtym10 do believe Jesus is in unity with God? If so Jesus' (True) Will is the same as God's.

Is your 'True Will' different?

Oh I believe we can all be in unity with God. All of our True Wills align with the Divine. God contains everything it’s only in the separate state our personal wills are separate..

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:41

"Oh I believe we can all be in unity with God. All of our True Wills align with the Divine. God contains everything it’s only in the separate state our personal wills are separate.."

@Kdtym10, so do you view Jesus Christ as being in perfect unity with God now? Not separate from God?

Following on from this how do you view the Christian concept of being 'in (Jesus) Christ'? Abiding in Him?

You mentioned 'spirit guides' in an earlier post. What is the purpose of choosing 'spirit guides' rather than choosing to be lead by Jesus Christ?

heyhohello · 26/02/2024 22:46

@Kdtym10 so if Jesus achieved 'Christ status' is He not now God? Unified with God? Not separate from Him.

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