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Philosophy/religion

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Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

1000 replies

VincitVeritas1 · 06/12/2023 17:45

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

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17
heyhohello · 07/12/2023 14:52

And as I said earlier, sacrifice does seem to be such a common quality amongst societies of varying beliefs.

So there must be something within our makeup which makes this a feature.

Maplesugarpie · 07/12/2023 14:56

Where do you believe 'Heaven' to be? It must at be huge to allow for so many people to live there forever? And where is 'Hell'?

I wonder whether scientists will manage to discover these huge areas?

heyhohello · 07/12/2023 14:58

@Maplesugarpie I believe in S(s)pirit(s) and the supernatural so it's not something I concern myself with worrying about.😉

heyhohello · 07/12/2023 15:00

I wonder whether scientists will manage to discover these huge areas

Maybe it will fit into a multiverse theory somewhere?

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 07/12/2023 15:05

Thanks for answering, and I agree about the features of our makeup.
The thing is though, there’s an individualistic, primeval way of looking at sacrifice (I will give up something I really love to elevate/save someone/something I love) and a point of view which takes into account the perspective of the victim too. I know why Abraham did what he did, but I also wonder how a father could look at his son realising what was about to happen: “why isn’t there a lamb, daddy?”
It’s the same but much more so in the case of God. First, he knew his son would suffer immense pain and he designed the system that would lead to his torture and temporary death. Secondly, he knew the death would be temporary but he’s still holding it over our heads thousands of years later. Thirdly, he’s omnipotent. He could have decided that we were going to be punished for our sins by getting chickenpox or syphilis or something every time we did a major one, but he chose to have his own son tortured. I have absolutely no problem with Jesus - he was probably a lovely man, great parables, super lessons. What kind of parent, especially one who can literally take it all away, hears “father, if it please you, let this cup be passed from me” and turns away? Is this the parent of all humanity that we should be praising with joy every day?

heyhohello · 07/12/2023 15:17

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau don't forget that Son, Jesus, is in complete unity with God, so much so they are the same. Jesus knew what would happen and willingly gave up His life.

"...For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. " (Hebrews 12:2 NIV)

He knew that His crucifixion and resurrection would save humankind from themselves, essentially (from their own worst natures that are apart from and in disagreement with God- who is love). That was the "...joy set before him".

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 07/12/2023 15:23

I know, and I can sympathise with Jesus, because I’d honestly walk over broken glass for the most important people in my life - I knew he had to suffer much more but you get the picture. The piece of the puzzle I don’t get is why that was the only way. God could easily have sent His son down to earth, let him be an extraordinarily charismatic rabbi for a few years while doing miracles to prove his bona fides, and then manifested himself to say “I’m letting you off this time, but in future please behave”.

heyhohello · 07/12/2023 15:33

I have absolutely no problem with Jesus - he was probably a lovely man, great parables, super lessons.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau, and Jesus shows us who God is. They are in unity, as one, the same.

heyhohello · 07/12/2023 15:37

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau,

I don’t get is why that was the only way.

Do you expect to be able to understand everything? If you understood everything God understands, you would have His endless knowledge and you would be in complete unity with Him.

BetsyBobbins · 07/12/2023 15:38

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 07/12/2023 15:23

I know, and I can sympathise with Jesus, because I’d honestly walk over broken glass for the most important people in my life - I knew he had to suffer much more but you get the picture. The piece of the puzzle I don’t get is why that was the only way. God could easily have sent His son down to earth, let him be an extraordinarily charismatic rabbi for a few years while doing miracles to prove his bona fides, and then manifested himself to say “I’m letting you off this time, but in future please behave”.

In my opinion, if there was no death and subsequent resurrection, Jesus would be just like any other prophet who came before him. That had to happen.

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 07/12/2023 15:56

@heyhohello there is no intent to cause offence here, I’m trying to understand, and I think God if he exists will of course be an infinitely complex being beyond our understanding.
Of course I don’t expect to understand everything, it’s just that God in his wisdom created humanity without even the tools to make sense of his decisions and actions? Again, if god exists we have to take as we find and I’ll take the punishment I’m due. But just like my brain can’t truly comprehend infinity or even the amount of a billion pounds, it can’t get around some of God’s decisions and I’m interested to hear the replies of the faithful, with no intent to scorn or demean them.
Thanks for your continued engagement by the way.

heyhohello · 07/12/2023 15:59

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau looking at it from an eternal perspective, maybe this life is about 'gaining the tools' and acquiring the capacity to come to the full knowledge of God in the next life?

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 07/12/2023 16:08

It’s possible. I’ve seen faith be a huge comfort to those in my life who do believe in this life (sorry, repetition but we aren’t playing Just a Minute so who cares) as well. I’m grateful that you’ve had this discussion with me and I’m looking forward to OP’s response when she has time :) I just can’t make the faith happen at least yet. I’ve also seen things, for example a friend of a friend exclaiming that she couldn’t wait to meet Jesus! In her early twenties and does she even know what that sounds like to a lucky survivor of several suicide attempts, let alone a healthy person expecting a good long life (I am the former not the latter). From everything I’ve heard though, our brains aren’t equipped to deal with God. So it’s difficult to accept the proposition that this life is designed to make the next easier, particularly given the biblical depictions of heaven which show us as totally transmogrified if we make the grade.

EmpressSoleil · 07/12/2023 16:24

A post popped up on my FB the other day, from a Nigerian lady talking about the price of spaghetti of all things! Seems food costs have gone up massively in Nigeria and it made me quit moaning about the costs here. Anyway, it was full of responses from other nigerians proclaiming God will provide. And I just thought no he won't.

People go hungry every day all over the world. God isn't providing them with anything. I think some people continue to believe because it's all they have left. If you take away their religion, which is essentially their hope, they're left with nothing. And that makes me sad.

I did used to believe in God but he never answered my prayers or comforted me. Because he wasn't there. I was talking to myself. Ironically once I realised this, my life improved so much. Atheism "saved" me. So for that reason no I won't go to "heaven" because I deny its existence.

FatFatMary · 07/12/2023 16:45

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 07/12/2023 14:22

@heyhohello as OP clearly has a busy life - understandable for a Christian at this time of year - would you be willing to share your perspective on why the sacrifice was necessary?
I can just about get my mind around Abraham and Isaac - at that point God was walking around talking to people (metaphorically, but he was very present) and if the person you love most in the world asks you to sacrifice the person you love second most who will then go and live for eternity in bliss, it would probably be horrible but an easy decision to make in the end. But Jesus I just don’t understand. Unless there’s a higher power than God, God must have sat down one day and thought “the only way I can forgive all these people is by getting them to torture my son to death”. Then he basically made that happen - we read in I think Exodus about him deliberately making Pharaoh keep the Israelites captive - he “hardened Pharaoh’s” heart in the version that’s read in my chapel several times over. Then he unleashes a plague. So he clearly has the powers needed to force humans to behave in a way that will cause them harm. In the same way, he put humans in a situation where they’d basically be guaranteed to want to punish Jesus in a way that was standard at the time. He had made them flawed and of course they erred - do current humans generally believe magic tricks are magic tricks?
From the Bible, we learn that God can conjure up the majesty of the entire natural world in six days. It takes your average undergrad that long to write a 2000-word essay. He has awesome powers and every time he gets things wrong he can wipe the slate clean at the cost of thousands or millions of human (and animal in the case of the Flood) lives. But he couldn’t think of a better way to clean the sin slates of humanity than to give up his own son to torturous death? All of us are flawed but “a really good man was killed in extreme pain 2000 years ago” really doesn’t equate to “you are all forgivable”.

Apologies if this came across more aggressive than it was intended - as I said I used to have faith and I have so much respect for those who still do, who with some notable exceptions tend to be lovely people. I also love getting into the nuts and bolts of complex subjects.

(I know you didn’t ask me, but) Jesus was sacrificed because the wages of sin is death. He took a death for us. It’s possible god has no control over this law, or that the law is necessary to achieve a perfect universe.

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 07/12/2023 16:58

Thanks for your response @FatFatMary. I can see your point of view, but if there’s an omnipotent god who made the stars he has probably been responsible for the laws of the universe as well. It’s one thing to make a sacrifice in the face of overwhelming forces. It’s another to be responsible for designing those forces and then spend two thousand years telling those you designed it was unavoidable.

heyhohello · 07/12/2023 17:23

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau

I’m grateful that you’ve had this discussion with me
Thank you that means a lot to me.

I just can’t make the faith happen at least yet. I’ve also seen things, for example a friend of a friend exclaiming that she couldn’t wait to meet Jesus! In her early twenties and does she even know what that sounds like to a lucky survivor of several suicide attempts, let alone a healthy person expecting a good long life (I am the former not the latter).

I think you're right there. For my own part, I know what it's like to be the survivor. I'm still here after having cancer ( several tumours) a few years ago whilst others very close to me died of cancer. Keep hanging on in there! I know life isn't always easy. Personally, my faith is my hope, like the others you know it is a huge comfort for me. I'd dearly love for you to find the same comfort but respect you need to find that in your own way and timing.

heyhohello · 07/12/2023 17:34

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau , it is my view that we were designed for unity with God. In unity we are partakers of His power and endless knowledge. We didn't need to eat from the Tree of Knowledge if we had realised we had access to all knowledge through God.

It's like any biological organism, the brain leads the body and whilst each cell has its own nucleus and feeds back to the brain it's the brain that should lead. We even are host to many many other microorganisms and they feed back to our brains. Yet when the brain is not in charge of all this we get ill. Cohesion is lost.

I thinks it's the same in this material universe when we lost unity with God. I think the universe is such an intricate system that our loss of unity has affected the whole system, it's all out of whack and from there we get suffering, destructive weather patterns etc it's like illness causes pain as the body attempts to defend itself and heal.

FatFatMary · 07/12/2023 17:35

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 07/12/2023 16:58

Thanks for your response @FatFatMary. I can see your point of view, but if there’s an omnipotent god who made the stars he has probably been responsible for the laws of the universe as well. It’s one thing to make a sacrifice in the face of overwhelming forces. It’s another to be responsible for designing those forces and then spend two thousand years telling those you designed it was unavoidable.

I would see it more like universal laws would be a manifestation of the nature of god

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 07/12/2023 17:37

@heyhohello that’s such a nuanced view and I respect you for it. I’m really glad you survived cancer and am sure your faith was a help as you went through that. I’m going to think on what you said and get back to you if that’s OK?

heyhohello · 07/12/2023 17:39

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau, absolutely fine. I'm pleased I was able to give you some food for thought.

Elphame · 07/12/2023 17:57

SwordToFlamethrower · 07/12/2023 08:54

I'm always baffled as to why people here in Britain with its temperate climate and 4 seasons, worship a jealous, murderous, manchild desert deity.

Give me Brigit and Cernunnos and lughnassadh and The Morrigan and Avalon. British gods. Pagans don't worship and grovel their gods, we don't fear their wrath, they don't go off knocking up 13 year old girls or having their children murdered, we party with them they are our companions and friends. They understand the land and the people and they are in every tree, rock, animal and plant.

Look to the old gods! Hail the old gods! They were here before the middle Eastern desert god with no name.

I’ll come and sit next to you!

This is so much more natural than sitting listening to a dreary sermon about what sinners we all are based on a cobbled together book of words, the meaning of which, even its devotees can’t agree on.

VincitVeritas1 · 09/12/2023 19:04

Apologies for the delay in replying @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau. This is a long post but only really scratches the surface in answer to such huge questions.

You're understandably looking at this from the incredibly narrow perspective of a human. Ultimately we can't even begin to fathom the mystery of why Jesus' death on the cross was necessary - not in this life at least. I don't think we need to understand the reasons behind it either, only to trust and accept that it was necessary.

I find it helps if we think of God as a perfect and holy judge. Imagine you have committed a heinous crime. You couldn't stand before a court of law and say “I’m really sorry for what I did, please forgive me!”. The judge is not going to let you get away scot-free because you have broken the law and the law dictates that justice must be served. You would still have to face the just penalty for your actions.
We all stand guilty before God, humanity being incapable of keeping His law. As it says in Romans 16:23, “For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
The natural consequence of turning our backs on God - the very source of all life - is death. Sin (meaning any behaviour which violates the will of God) separates us from having a full and loving relationship with Him. Evil must be punished. However, God, in His love and mercy, gave us a way out and chose to enter into the world, ‘take on flesh’ i.e. become a human being and pay the debt we all owe Himself, by dying in our place and ultimately defeating death through His resurrection. It’s as if the same judge, after passing you the death sentence, takes off their black cap, steps down from the bench and walks to the gallows in your place. This wasn’t child sacrifice - it was self sacrifice. Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life - only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” (John 10:14-18).

The Apostle Paul sheds further light on God’s great plan to bring us into a right relationship with Him:
"If we are 'out of our mind,' as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:13-21).

It’s no coincidence that the crucifixion happened during the celebration of Passover - one of the most important dates in the Jewish calendar. Passover was the time when God freed the Israelites from slavery in Egypt. Every household was ordered to slaughter a lamb and mark their doorposts with the blood so that they would be spared from death. Jesus became the sacrificial 'Lamb of God' for all people, for all time; "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." (1 Peter 1:18-21). The whole sacrificial system of the Old Testament was a foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrifice but, as we read in Hebrews, "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming - not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." (Hebrews 10:1-3). Why blood? There is a clue in the book of Leviticus when God commands the Israelites not to consume blood; "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life." (Leviticus 17:11).

The story of Abraham and Isaac, that you mentioned, also contains a hidden message regarding the crucifixion. In Genesis 22, verse 8, Abraham says, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." and in verse 13 and 14 it reads, "Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided.”
The mountain where Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac was called Mount Moriah which also happens to be the place most scholars agree is the exact location where Jesus was crucified (later known as Golgotha). We see that God did indeed provide the Lamb, as He had promised. At the moment Jesus died, just after He had cried out "It is finished!", an earthquake ripped Jerusalem's holy temple curtain in two. The curtain (or veil) separated the rest of the temple from the earthly dwelling place of God - the 'Holy of Holies'. Only one man - the high priest - was allowed to enter behind this once a year, after much ritual cleansing to make atonement for the people's sins. The destruction of this veil symbolised the ending of the old covenant and the beginning of the new and that Jesus' blood shed on the cross was sufficient for the atonement of sins. We are all now able to enter into the 'Holy of Holies' and have access to God, through Jesus Christ.

OP posts:
OP posts:
Parker231 · 09/12/2023 19:21

EternallySecure · 06/12/2023 23:52

John 3:16 says:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that, whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life".

It doesn't say:

so that whosoever gives to charity
so that whosoever lives a good life
so that whosoever earns enough points by their good works....

It says whosoever BELIEVES ON HIM.

If you look up the word believe you will see it means to trust in and rely upon with full assurance.

If you believe in your own works, not only are there no clear parameters for you to know how much is good enough, but you are not trusting in HIM. You're trusting in a human (you).

We've all let ourselves down though. Ever tried to keep a New Year's resolution or a new diet for longer than 3 weeks? It's hard to do. Ever had to apologise? We all make mistakes even when we try hard not to. We are imperfect, fallible creatures and we have great sides but also let ourselves down.

So in answer to your question: will I make it to heaven? Then yes if you put your trust in the right person.

Whosoever trusts in HIM.

Trusts he is who he says he is (for God cannot lie)

Trust he did what he did for us (the ultimate sacrifice to pay our debt of sin)

Trust that we are incapable of earning our own way, but that eternal life in heaven is a free gift that we cannot earn by our good works, like any free gift we accept it or we say no and walk away.

It's quite simple really.

So if I don’t put my trust in an imaginary god I don’t believe in, I’ll go where?

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