Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

True, it is after all a matter of belief.

I would describe it as a matter of truth.

Our beliefs are in a sense neither here nor there.

Well, as a believer of course you would. Until we develop some form of empirical proof of the distance or otherwise of God, we will never know.

I would say the same as a non-believer. Truth is objective.

There are many ways to come to know God outside of the scientific method - miracles, testimonies, individual experiences that may not be easily replicable, etc.

You sound rather close-minded I have to say - there is evidence for life after death and all kinds of unexplainable things in this world.

I am actually very open minded and curious. I have just not seen any evidence of 'souls' or 'life after death'. If there is any proper evidence I would be very interested in finding out more.

@Bluegetaniums Well, that's great. See my previous couple of posts then I guess.

Hearsay or actual evidence?

If you're talking about historical evidence such as the gospels, hearsay doesn't really apply here. These are better understood as witness statements (which they are, essentially).

You could also look at circumstantial evidence such as accuracy in incidental details and take into account the fact of the explosion of Christianity in the time after Jesus's crucifixion.

A 'hearsay' statement can also be factually true, but still not be admissible evidence in a court for example.

In terms of other evidence you might describe as hearsay, I suppose I would suggest you consider the merits of each one individually, just as you would with anything else.

Although the question does suggest an adversarial approach on your part.

As we're getting near the end of the thread, would anyone be interested in a new one? Happy to start and link here if so.

Yes please

thanks

I think this is the problem. What sort of “evidence” are you looking for? Are you talking in terms of scientific methodology?

When we are discussing souls and other spiritual matters scientific methodology- designed for the mundane is not really any use. What we need to investigate is people’s spiritual experiences which are often inner experiences.

I wouldn’t call the gospels witness statements. Plus work is interesting as it is useful as a tool to see the way a narrow example of the early Jesus cults were developing, it’s useful to see the impact of mystic Judaism and Platonism were intertwining in the Roman Empire and the continue Hellenistic influence.

But they’re not (for the vast vast vast majority eye witness statements of people who witnessed Jesus in his life time)

New thread here for those interested:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/5018897-why-or-why-not-be-christian.

Hope this is not treading on any toes but I thought I'd better get in before we run out of posting space.

But they’re not (for the vast vast vast majority eye witness statements of people who witnessed Jesus in his life time)

You're right - I should have said they were written by companions to the apostles Peter and Paul.
This is part of a video series discussing authorship, dating and general reliability of the Gospel accounts which I think is good (although it has annoying background music!

why do you think your “essence “ will end up with Jesus? How will this be a benefit to you when you’re dead?

And as others have asked, how does this benefit you when you're dead and your whole body is decomposing??

@Parker231 and @Bluegetaniums

It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken. ”Since we have that same spirit of faith, we also believe and therefore speak, because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:13-18)
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
(2 Corinthians 5:1-11).

Essentially, nobody really dies. As C. S. Lewis put it; "We don't have a soul. We are a soul. We happen to have a body."

Exactly.

I obviously disagree with this. Nobody can earn their way into heaven. I can see why it's appealing, but the idea of universalism is unbiblical. I gave my reasons for believing this in the previous thread, so won’t repeat them again here.

Hope this is not treading on any toes but I thought I'd better get in before we run out of posting space.

No problem at all @Mustardseed86

To conclude the thread, here are some common misconceptions about Heaven:

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/heaven-and-hell/7-myths-about-heaven-that-are-not-biblical.html

and the Beatitudes, which sum up Jesus' teaching about what it means to live as a child of God's kingdom:

Peace.

We have them at yoga class - doesn’t do anything for me but some people like using them. Don’t see anything wrong with them.

I was listening to a sermon yesterday and I was reminded that Jesus told His disciples "Let the little children come to me and stop keeping them away, because the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to people like these". Matthew 19:14

It is a very wise person who knows what they do not know. I matters of Christian faith, we can have all the theology, eschatology, exegesis and hermeneutics in the world but 1Corinthians 8:2-3 If anyone thinks of themselves as knowledgable, they still have a lot to learn; but if a person passionately loves God, they will posses the knowledge of God.

If a child has a loving parent, they do not question that fact. Daily, they are in relationship with their loving parent. For me, through the sacrifice of Jesus, God has told me I am loved. I am content to think of my Heavenly Father (He is above the human need to label gender), and I am in relationship with Him all day, every day. That is another reason to know I will be in Heaven with Him.

It's not really unbiblical is it - unless you're ignoring the Biblical passage I just shared. Sounds like picking and choosing to me.

I have no wish to get into an argument. I'm not ignoring that passage, just interpreting it differently.

You simply can't look at Bible verses in isolation and the concept of universal salvation is not supported by Scripture. You can't pick and choose the nice parts:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16.

If everyone reaches Heaven in the end, what is meant by the word 'perish' here? Jesus clearly says only those who believe in Him will be saved.

…"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thessalonians 1:10.

Again, if everyone eventually reaches Heaven, why the need for a rescue mission?

"The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Matthew 26:24.

Jesus is talking about Judas Iscariot here. Why would he say it would be better for him if he'd never been born if Judas was going to see Him in Heaven anyway?

"Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:3-7.

The parable of the sheep and the goats ends with the blunt sentence, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46.

The same Greek word for eternal is used to describe the fate of both the righteous and the ungodly. If Hell is not eternal then neither is Heaven. Note the word 'punishment', this fire is not purifying or corrective, it is retributive justice. There's also verse 41; “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Jesus said "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” John 8:24.

The wages of sin is death (for everyone).

I’m not going to hell anymore than I’ll go to heaven. Devil and angels don’t exist.

What knowledge does God have that the rest of us don’t?

What knowledge does God have that the rest of us don’t?

Is that a serious question? @Parker231