Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

This would certainly back this up.

interesting she still uses the name “virtue” is she holding herself out to be something she is not. sure the Bible said something about teachers and false prophets. She’s certainly not taking Paul’s advise re Women to “ be silent”

Do you think the band repented enough for that American preachers liking ? Just don’t wear their T Shirts 🤫

@heyhohello with war poetry for me it depends on whether it's the flag waving in your face glorifying kind or the kind that shows us the horror of war and reminds us it is always a bad choice. The latter is a necessary thing. I don't think you can adequately study history without touching on it. The words 'holy' and 'war' don't belong together. It's the same wigh photography - we must not shut our eyes to it, and sadness is an appropriate response.

@Kdtym10 eh? Which band? Don't get it. I'm not the same as the American preacher. This stuff is in the world we have to navigate it. It comes from people who exist. We don't have to like all of it or immerse ourselves in it or agree with all the sentiments expressed, though, either.

@pointythings I'm not saying ban it. Just it is upsetting and it is important we are upset by it. And sometimes we don't need to immerse ourselves in more upset and that is ok to.

@heyhohello I agree, but if you see what is happening in the US with regards to book bans, we need to speak out against the promotion of people like the dreaded Doreen. Because these people want to take away the freedoms we take for granted. Let's never forget who banned books and art for 'degeneracy' first.

Oh sorry - the band who wrote those lyrics the preacher was calling the spawn of Satan!

I know you’re not like that preacher . But was just trying to pint out what is for and against Christianity is not clear cut at all (really what those lyrics can be interpreted as being about)

She's gone from New Age to US fundamentalist (a scary bunch). Some have speculated it's down to her husband, she married him a few years ago and it's been said he's quite controlling and not very nice. She seek to be very sincere about her faith but of course it's all through a very narrow lens. Conversion therapy etc. as you say, a lot of abusive practices.

I wonder if any of the Christians on this thread believe in the concept of apostolic succession? As in, traced all the way back to Jesus's apostles through the laying on of hands to the next generation of bishops/elders.

IMO you've got two potential false paths here (the redefine everything, choose your own adventure type of system, and the hardcore fundamentalists) which can best be avoided by remaining within the apostolic tradition.

The concept of the Bible as an inerrant manual for life is anachronistic, but equally the gnostic gospels etc. have no legitimate place within the apostolic Christian tradition and community. Other than for general historical or philosophical interest.

IMO you've got two potential false paths here (the redefine everything, choose your own adventure type of system, and the hardcore fundamentalists) which can best be avoided by remaining within the apostolic tradition.

@Mustardseed86, unfortunately I don't believe the apostolic tradition is any kind of magic sticking plaster to avoid either excesses. You only need to look at the history of the Roman Catholic Church!

I guess the problem with this is how do you know the teachings being handed down are actually the teachings of the apostles. Let’s face it, we really only have significant verifiable writings from Paul who (I know controversially here) I don’t recognise as an apostle.,

Of course many traditions have a mentor to student passing on of often esoteric information and I don’t think this is in itself a problem, it is just difficult to largely verify the source to claim apostolic succession

I don’t think it solves anything really, it’s just another option (probably many of the people in this chain have also “chosen their own adventure).

Really the best way is to let people decide for themselves making sure
as many of the relevant facts (such as they can be ascertained) are available to be factored in

@heyhohello That's very true as well. I suppose there must be some recognisable central elements we can all agree on but there's a tendency to embellish and get carried away as well.

The RCC point to themselves as having arranged the final canon of the Bible and claim equal authority on that basis, I don't agree with either claim. But there's something to be said for a unified tradition, in theory. I just don't see the point of all the extra dogmas (e.g. you must believe in Mary's immaculate conception and assumption to be a Catholic in good standing). Anyway, that's by the by.

I guess the problem with this is how do you know the teachings being handed down are actually the teachings of the apostles.

@Kdtym1 one answer to this is to sincerely seek God through prayer, and ask in the faith that you will receive.

"13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)

Well I’m all for speaking directly to the divine, not sure I’m going to find out the validity of catholic theology though

@Kdtym10 you never know! But I think some things are meant to be mysterious....would take too much to get our heads around. I find sometimes you can get a glimpse of understanding but it is difficult to put into words.

I definitely agree many things are difficult to put into words and where we try to describe the ineffable we construct it. For me this is where symbols come in

Constrict it not construct

One way to distinguish what has been passed down is to look at what was believed in the early Church. there are so many writings still in existence from.the early Church Fathers from as early as the second century AD. Some of these Church Fathers were students of the Apostles or students of those first students.
Examining the beliefs expressed in the Early Church Father writings really clarifies some of the beliefs and whether they existed in the early years of Christianity or if they came along centuries later.. like Sola Fides, Sola Scriptura, once saved always saved, salvation precedeing faith, baptismal regeneration, how the Eucharist was understood, how worship was conducted on the Sabbath etc etc etc.... as well as Apoatolic succession.

Well worth studying when doubting where certain beliefs became within different the different denominations.

@SilverViking ah, yes, good point. But maybe some developments in the church have been necessary too as it has grown and spread.

Examining the beliefs expressed in the Early Church Father writings really clarifies some of the beliefs and whether they existed in the early years of Christianity or if they came along centuries later.. like Sola Fides, Sola Scriptura, once saved always saved, salvation precedeing faith, baptismal regeneration, how the Eucharist was understood, how worship was conducted on the Sabbath etc etc etc.... as well as Apoatolic succession.

I'm not Catholic (C of E) but I'd be interested in reading more about this. I realise it's a huge body of work but if you have any recommendations of where to start that would be great. I do think there was a lot of diversity of views even among the early Church Fathers though.

Yes, absolutly agreedl. The "church" that brought the Gospel to the world had to be different from the early days. The Bible doesn't mention "The Bible" or what it should contain. That all had to be decided.
Imagine how you would preserve God's message so it doesn't get corrupted many times over, as it is brought to many countries and many cultures over 2000 years ... often at times when people couldn't read.
The Gospels don't mention the word "Trinity", yet nearly all Christian denominations recognise this concept now within the Bible.
People's prayer practice will change over centuries and often reflect the earlier beliefs that Christianity replaces within cultures (e.g. dates for Christmas and Easter etc etc).

It is really one of the wonders of Christianity ... how it grew around the world.... from a "carpenter's son" living in a small village in the Middle East!

@Mustardseed86 - the Early Church Fathers are available online ... such as at
https://www.churchfathers.org/ which also has a useful list of topics that it cross references to the Church Fathers writings. Actual translations can be found on sites like
https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html
https://www.ccel.org/fathers.

The Didache is thought to be one of the oldest surviving writings ... possibly written when John was still alive. Clement is mentioned in the Bible... and his Epistle is recorded. Justyn the Martyr was writing before 160AD ...gives a wonderful apology and oversight of Christianity at that time ( as he was awaiting his martyrdom).

You can also check online as there are lots of commentary on the Early Church Fathers.
But, it becomes wearisome as some commentators "quote mine" early texts to try and prove some point or other. Quite often the Church Fathers are not addressing , describing or trying to justify concepts that didn't exist until centuries afterwards.

Also bear in mind... the Church Fathers are not "infallible" and sometimes their thoughts develop and are expressed differently over the years ... such as St Agustine who wrote so much in his lifetime. Also, they just get it plain wrong ... like someone quoting that Jesus lived until his 50s 😀

@SilverViking, @Mustardseed86 & @Kdtym10

I read this piece of scripture today.

"Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." (Matthew 5:6)

It was really what I needed to hear. I do find I can get bogged down with all the intricacies of different doctrine and practices of the different denominations/church traditions. This can panic me sometimes and be a block to faith, I feel. It is something I feel Jesus addressed a lot in His teachings. We need to hold onto that which is important, challenged sometimes, yes, but there needs to be a balance otherwise it can be nit picking and can cause people to feel totally alienated and like giving up. It's why I think there has to be a balance with studying church traditions- there is so much information out there it's possible to find something to contradict almost anything. The people of the church have never been perfect.

@Kdtym10

I definitely agree many things are difficult to put into words and where we try to describe the ineffable we construct it. For me this is where symbols come in

I don't know whether you have already read this novel but I am reading it at the moment and thought you might like it. 🙂

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Babel-SUNDAY-bestseller-anticipated-fantasy/dp/0008501858/ref=sr111?crid=2G3X9EO9F5Z31&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.BOq0o8o6-A7RGzukJ8tSJsJDcbVLwCP7MvXQpwP6XYGCkCMfmhq7WuLDPVzltpLsvuXUcmwGlDCLjl1shrx4VkfxhN06US4R5mG7dAHaBEyYYrTfwBL1v6-cKFXJlsdvotnvB1q8P4h9H6PLLljwQyRQ3AO2x4dzD0FbMxKbPGZ2t3623A4fdDpxY74Y9lzgdn-uOdwZqMIW50Z8mKi5JnA9ppqMzAK55iegO9rY.K4H29ewS9UXYxsnnPE7WhJEAZBQkY9cMta1Bebumnqc&dib_tag=se&keywords=babel+book&qid=1708615207&sprefix=Babel%2Caps%2C237&sr=8-1

Thanks for the recommendation- no I’ve not read it but I certainly will - what do you think of it?