Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

So in essence, what you’re saying is, it’s intention which matters. What if I use crystals as part of a journey to unify with God?

That’s the plus of a debate - we all state our own equally valid opinions. You have yours and I have mine. Who is right?

I think it would depend on how you use them. Incorporating them into artwork celebrating the beauty of Creation would be a positive use. Anything ascribing special powers to them is clearly against Christian teaching.

I'm just baffled you think you've never done anything wrong! You've really never hurt someone's feelings, gossiped, made negative assumptions, held a grudge, told a lie, been envious, lost your temper etc..?

None of those are sins - just everyday life. You do something wrong - you apologise and move on. Leading a positive life is the best thing you can do - less likely to do things wrong.

Yes, and that's good/fine - but you previously stated on the thread you've done nothing wrong.

I don’t consider the things you have listed as wrong - everyday life things done by everyone. Wrong (or sins) are imo - murder (although I’m 100% pro choice when it comes to rights to have an abortion), hurting animals, reversing into someone’s car and not leaving your insurance details, stealing money from someone

Well, I do think each thing on my list is wrong under most circumstances, although not gravely wrong perhaps.

They're not a benefit to you or other people and can be harmful. It’s also about where they can potentially lead/spiral. And whether we're loving and serving others or being motivated by selfishness.

Basically God wants us to be holy, so it's whether something takes us closer to that or further away. 'Sin' can mean anything from simply missing the mark to far more egregious things.

@Mustardseed86 - I have no plans on being holy and sin obviously means different things to different people.

Fair enough!

Sin only really has one meaning though (sorry, I have a bee in my bonnet about obfuscating and changing the meanings of words!) It's just a word that means wrongdoing.

The differences would be in terms of how seriously we take it, whether certain actions are/aren't and obviously whether you have any belief in God.

Sin isn't an exclusively religious concept, although secular people may choose not to use the word and substitute evil/spiteful/selfish/cruel or whatever fits, for more serious things. I guess 'sin' is more of a catch-all term, like 'wrongdoing'.

I think the problem with the word sin is that it does have a heavy religious payload. It doesn't help when people with more extreme religious beliefs don't seem able to distinguish between the greater and the lesser.

When it comes to the everyday wrongs we all do, I genuinely feel it is better to acknowledge, apologise and make amends in life rather than think about consequences in a hypothetical hereafter. Much the same applies to greater misdeeds, which is why we have a justice system. Religion just isn't needed to handle any of this. If you look at modern theory races like Iran, what you see is religion used as a tool to perpetuate an unjust system. The Alabama IVF case, where a judge invoked God, is much the same.

@pointythings Christian belief, for me, involves the acknowledgment we are none of us perfect and we make mistakes. We do not have the infinite knowledge of God, what is good and are not always great at knowing the full consequences of our actions.

So in Christianity it is my view anything that is not in unity with God's perfect will is sin so we all sin because we have not the infinite knowledge of God.

And when these sins/mistakes occur it is therefore good to acknowledge and change, that is not repeat them. Except situations constantly change wherein lies the difficulty.

That is why I view my relationship with the triune God a vital part of my life. This helps me come to know God better and reflect upon how He would have me act.

However mistakes will occur as we are not (yet) perfect and we have to move on from them. That involves forgiveness, changing what we can, letting go and moving on and making the best out life in the midst of it all. Recognising that people are damaged, damaged as we all have been, and being compassionate towards them. And doing what we can do to help. Blaming is ridiculous because where do you start? And end?

Yes, it does have a religious connotation but it also does simply mean wrongdoing and I think when you look at a lot of what is happening in the world, it seems an appropriate term. Or you could say evil instead. Sexual exploitation, misogyny, murder and genocide etc.

But as a Christian it's about acknowledging my own faults and how they fit into the bigger picture, seeking forgiveness, trying to do good and equally important, forgiving others. I believe God wants to reconcile us with Himself and with each other, so that means accepting and offering forgiveness and also restitution where appropriate.

Misusing religion and seeking power in order to oppress others whether it be under the name of Islam, Christianity or Communism or whatever, is also sinful/wrong. There's no perfect, utopian system that will erase the human tendency to be destructive though unfortunately.

I agree there are greater and lesser sins, but I view it as a continuum in a way. Even minor things can have significant ripples and ill-effects.
I don't think you need religion to be moral, but Christian thought has formed the basis of a lot of the ethics we now take for granted.

As for thinking in terms of the hereafter, yes that is wrong if that's how you treat your faith. Christians are called to be part of and build the Kingdom of God on earth and given lots of guidance on what that looks like. But if you believe you have a soul, it's important to have peace with your Creator and think about what path you may be on. It's also a great hope for Christians, and it's built on Jesus's own resurrection and promises to us. So the idea is to live a good life, seek forgiveness for our failings and look forward to 'going home' at the end of our earthly lives.

Being a Christian doesn’t mean that it is more likely they will have good morals than an atheist. This is clear from the historical problems within churches.

@Parker231 On a personal level that may be true. Identifying with a religion doesn't necessarily mean much. The question is whether you follow the moral law.

In terms of the development of ethical thought, religion has always been intertwined with this and in fact many early 'social justice' movements such as help for the poor, schools and hospitals etc, were based on religious thought and the religious conviction of the people involved. In more recent times the civil rights movement drew heavily on Exodus, for example. The concept of human rights is based on the belief in the inherent worth and dignity of every person which is a pretty transcendent belief. I'm not sure how you get to that from a purely utilitarian standpoint or based on evolutionary precepts. There wouldn't be much to say for the rights of the disabled from that standpoint, for example.

So the idea is to live a good life, seek forgiveness for our failings and look forward to 'going home' at the end of our earthly lives.

What if a non believer lives a sin free good life? So they also 'go home' at the end of their lives?

*Do

@Mustardseed86 - hopefully most people are law abiding and have a moral code which works in society regardless of whether they follow any religion. Certainly is within my friends and family (all are atheists with the exception of two who are about to fall out with their church as it won’t give them a same sex marriage).

You've made me 🙂 This rather short, ageing and failing outer casing; this mere mortal shell will be dead and rotting to this world, but the soul/spirit what is essentially 'me' will live in a new and perfect form - as it says in Ecclesiastes "the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it"

If I didn't believe it, then nothing at all is lost; there is no benefit and no loss. However, through faith in Christ Jesus, I do believe it, and so I will not die. In a silly moment my friends and I sort of hope there's a bit of a naughty corner where we can still have a giggle, but that's just human ego.

Things don't happen just because people belive they will.

This rather short, ageing and failing outer casing; this mere mortal shell will be dead and rotting to this world, but the soul/spirit what is essentially 'me' will live in a new and perfect form - as it says in Ecclesiastes "the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it"

What ?

Just because a book/story says something does not make it happen!

Do you honestly think people's bodies have a 'soul' hidden inside them?

And that that 'soul' will just magically move out of your dying body and fly up to God??

I find that so mind boggling strange

And as others have asked, how does this benefit you when you're dead and your whole body is decomposing??

They also don't not happen because you believe they won't.

I think so.

In Matthew Chapter 31 for example, Jesus describes judging all nations (which would include different belief systems, especially back then) according to ethical lines and whether a person behaves charitably and compassionately: Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Why is it strange? Do you think people are pretending when we say we believe in God and in the soul? It can't be that much of a novelty to you, surely?
You sound rather close-minded I have to say - there is evidence for life after death and all kinds of unexplainable things in this world.

Look into experiences of people who work with the dying and people who have clinically died and been resuscitated - not only do they frequently describe life after death, but they often give details of things which happened while they were dead or unconscious and not even in the same room (out of body experiences)!

So why is it strange to conclude that that there's something beyond the physical - should we dismiss all evidence to the contrary because it doesn't line up with a purely materialist worldview? Do you assume that all these stories are lying, psychological phenomena and superstitions? If so I can only assume you've never looked into it in any depth.