Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

@Mustardseed86, Otherwise it just comes across as someone trying to scare other people who think it's nonsense anyway.

Oh, I see that is where you were coming from!...I might be being dense but didn't think the OP was attempting to do that with the title of this thread...

But the, rereading the op it might have just being for discussion with regard to different Christian doctrines...who knows?

The thread being titled “will you make it to heaven “ - my question would be how, why and what for?

Maybe not. There's a previous thread with the same title and it does come across there, unfortunately. There's a quiz which is intended to show that everybody has sinned in some way and therefore needs God's forgiveness before they could ever go to heaven. As a Christian, I do believe that, although I also believe that God wants every single person He created to eventually be with Him in heaven. But for someone not in any way religiously inclined, it makes no sense to start telling them how inadequate they are and that God is going to punish them unless they suddenly believe in something they don't think is actually true.

And do you feel these questions have been answered?

Thank you - your best comment!

As I haven’t sinned I don’t need forgiveness, am not inadequate and no one is going to punish me.

@Mustardseed86, ah I see. It does seem to be a trend in certain apologetics circles to frame discussions in such ways. I'm not sure how successful the discussions are. I don't tend to form rigid rules for such discussions myself, preferring to respond and respect individual situations.

Wow - this kind of attitude is very blinkered and a bit strange, very indoctrinated, no self understanding

I don't think you can assume that someone is indoctrinated or blinkered just because they believe mainstream Christian teachings. Or that they lack self understanding. Not sure how you could come to that conclusion based on one post tbh.

But you accuse me of not understanding because I don’t believe in your concept of sin. You can’t have it both ways.

@Parker231, it's a difficult one. You obviously don't have exactly the same understanding (of the Christian faith) as a person of the Christian faith because if you did you would believe in the same way. You obviously come to different conclusions regarding all the source material. Which means you understand differently/perceive differently/ have a different perspective to someone of the Christian faith.

@Parker231 like you do have a concept of sin because you do believe in g(G)od(s). It's completely logical, from an atheist perspective, not to since sin is defined as going again g(G)od(s)' will.

Yet, if someone believes in g(G)od(s) then the idea of sin makes more sense.

Different understanding, different perspective, different perception.

Do not! (1st sentence) Weird glitch there!

@Parker231 agreed. I've read the Bible. I understand the concept of sin perfectly well. I just happen to think it's a load of bilge. If I do something that is wrong according to the law of where I live, there are consequences. But the laws of religion do not apply to me.

I haven't said you don't understand, you just have a confusing way of writing which implies there are separate realities for people who believe and people who don't. Hopefully we're all at least on the same page in terms of the concept of objective truth.

Well, in a sense there are separate realities. Because believers think that theirs applies to those who do not believe. Truth is a difficult concept, and that's before you get into the realms of theology and theoretical physics.

There are differences - as a non believer, heaven/hell/sin etc don’t exist and aren’t a part of my life. As a Christian/believer, they obviously are for you.

We were in Salt Lake City a couple of months ago and did a tour of one of the temples - amazing building. A couple of young Mormon missionaries took us around and answered our questions. Lovely young girls- very friendly, offered to email us and arrange for their fellow missionaries to visit us when we got home. In their late teens but they couldn’t think outside of their church teachings. It worried me that girls only a couple of years younger than DD were trapped in a cult type world.

On this subject of 'separate realities' no one conclusively can prove or disprove (g)God(s). And to complicate things further, (by definition) spirits and the spiritual world are none material - they don't exist in the material sense and are outside of/not bound to/beyond physical linear time. So whilst objective truth exists it is something that cannot be established regarding this subject. Hence faith is required as a part of Christian belief. Which a fair few reject. But the need for faith doesn't bother me personally because I think it is necessary in order to move forward in the absence of concrete fact. Added to that, I find not much is that concrete. Life is full of surprises! But still some people will reject my reasoning such as it is. Their choice.

Different perceptions and beliefs, but there is only one reality. Not getting into theoretical physics as I don't know the first thing about it!

I'm not sure I agree with you, @Mustardseed86 . A Christian theist's reality includes a deity, sin and judgement after death. An atheist's reality does not. Both things cannot be true. Neither thing can be proven. We will never know.

Fair point, I guess a person's reality will include their own beliefs, which differ.

So long as everyone is happy with their choices - religion v not - all is good.

Well, I wish you understood the reality of your choice. There truly is so much evidence for God, for Jesus and for the supernatural, if you're ever interested in exploring; it's not like it's something people randomly made up. Some of us Christians are even quite intelligent. But I wish you all the best, regardless.

But the need for faith doesn't bother me personally because I think it is necessary in order to move forward in the absence of concrete fact.

Why is it necessary to 'move forward'?