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Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

1000 replies

VincitVeritas1 · 06/12/2023 17:45

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
heyhohello · 20/12/2023 12:49

@redlavender, apology accepted. Life can be a struggle. I think, though, it's useful to be aware of how different people manage through those struggles. Your post did make me feel a bit crap as I do sometimes suffer from survivor's guilt. My faith does offer me hope and it's about the only thing that does, as I have explained in earlier posts. Statistically the odds haven't always been great for myself and those very close to me.

VincitVeritas1 · 27/12/2023 15:47

SoLongDaisyMay · 11/12/2023 16:17

OP I remember your previous thread and how utterly vile you were to someone who was simply widening a discussion about faith

If heaven is full of people who treat others like that then I won't be missing much when I don't get in

@SoLongDaisyMay No, I simply suggested that a pp's questions around exploring paganism might be more appropriate on a different thread, which I stand by.

If you think being a Christian is just about avoiding hell and getting into heaven, I think it shows a pretty poor understanding of Christ and relationship with Him.

Was that directed towards me @Mustardseed86 ?

I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas. It's been very busy here, but I'm enjoying finally catching up with the thread.

Forgive me for quoting C .S. Lewis again, but this extract from The Magician's Nephew jumped out at me the other day. I think it perfectly sums up the sort of attitude atheists have towards God and perhaps how they might be if He revealed Himself to them. If you're not familiar with the world of Narnia, Aslan here represents Jesus:

"Bring out that creature," said Aslan. One of the Elephants lifted Uncle Andrew in its trunk and laid him at the Lion's feet. He was too frightened to move.
"Please, Aslan," said Polly, "Could you say something to - to unfrighten him? And then could you say something to prevent him from ever coming back here again?"
"Do you think he wants to?" said Aslan.
"Well, Aslan," said Polly, "he might send someone else. He's so excited about the bar off the lamp-post growing into a lamp-post tree and he thinks -"
"He thinks great folly, child" said Aslan. "This world is bursting with life for these few days because the song with which I called it into life still hangs in the air and rumbles in the ground. It will not be so for long. But I cannot tell that to this old sinner, and I cannot comfort him either; he has made himself unable to hear my voice. If I spoke to him, he would hear only growlings and roarings. Oh Adam's sons, how cleverly you defend yourselves against all that might do you good! But I will give him the only gift he is still able to receive."
He bowed his great head rather sadly, and breathed into the Magician's terrified face. "Sleep," he said. "Sleep and be separated for some few hours from all the torments you have devised for yourself."

Where believers see a majestic King, worthy of serving, others see a monster to be feared and avoided. Like the great Pharaoh who refused to release the captive Israelites, they have hardened their hearts. Jesus touched on this in Matthew 13:

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

OP posts:
Mustardseed86 · 28/12/2023 12:26

@VincitVeritas1 It was a general comment, because if anyone is reading I really don't want them to think that following Jesus is all about taking on a particular belief system in order to avoid punishment. For that reason I don't believe these threads you've posted are likely to be overly helpful to anyone who is not already a believer.

heyhohello · 28/12/2023 13:19

For that reason I don't believe these threads you've posted are likely to be overly helpful to anyone who is not already a believer.

@Mustardseed86, I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't split reasons for coming to believe in Christ into 'worthy' and 'unworthy'. We are all sinners (act independently of/ apart from God against His will) and any reason that draws someone closer to God is surely a good thing? The title of the thread is pretty open as is the discussion. I think, as Christians, we also need to be careful of not excluding people at the outset when they might be curious about God for all sorts of reasons. Since they are yet to experience God more fully and what this all means who are we to judge them?

Personally, I cried out to God and drew closer, although I was already a believer, when I was going through a very difficult time in my life. Does that make me selfish or mercenary? Maybe but it was a positive move for me. I don't believe it is wrong for acknowledging and being appreciative of Gods blessings.

Girahim · 28/12/2023 13:26

OP never converted anyone pre-flounce, their not going to convert anyone now.

heyhohello · 28/12/2023 13:27

@Mustardseed86

And, not least, acknowledging we are all in need of forgiveness is important! Who would really want to be punished for every single mistake they make in life and not be forgiven? It scares me that people think it is somehow wrong to be seeking forgiveness. Yes, we should actually repent and be seeking forgiveness and not do what is wrong on purpose or call what is wrong right but it is a good thing to acknowledge we are all in need of forgiveness!

heyhohello · 28/12/2023 13:29

@Girahim, hey I'm not counting but an open discussion can lead to some good. Maybe not immediately but sometimes in the aftermath when people mull over what has been said.

As a Christian, I have certainly learnt from these discussions. Not least concerning what tends to offend people with different beliefs to my own!

pointythings · 28/12/2023 13:36

@VincitVeritas1 can you please stop making sweeping generalisations about atheists? We're all different. Just like theists.

Parker231 · 28/12/2023 13:41

heyhohello · 28/12/2023 13:19

For that reason I don't believe these threads you've posted are likely to be overly helpful to anyone who is not already a believer.

@Mustardseed86, I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't split reasons for coming to believe in Christ into 'worthy' and 'unworthy'. We are all sinners (act independently of/ apart from God against His will) and any reason that draws someone closer to God is surely a good thing? The title of the thread is pretty open as is the discussion. I think, as Christians, we also need to be careful of not excluding people at the outset when they might be curious about God for all sorts of reasons. Since they are yet to experience God more fully and what this all means who are we to judge them?

Personally, I cried out to God and drew closer, although I was already a believer, when I was going through a very difficult time in my life. Does that make me selfish or mercenary? Maybe but it was a positive move for me. I don't believe it is wrong for acknowledging and being appreciative of Gods blessings.

I think it’s only believers who talk and think about being a sinner. As an atheist it doesn’t matter to me as I know I haven’t sinned.

sunflowerpinks · 28/12/2023 13:44

Who would really want to be punished for every single mistake they make in life

Every action has consequences. So rather than call it 'punishment' shouldn't it just be 'consequences'? And of course we all have to and should live with them.

Parker231 · 28/12/2023 13:44

VincitVeritas1 · 27/12/2023 15:47

@SoLongDaisyMay No, I simply suggested that a pp's questions around exploring paganism might be more appropriate on a different thread, which I stand by.

If you think being a Christian is just about avoiding hell and getting into heaven, I think it shows a pretty poor understanding of Christ and relationship with Him.

Was that directed towards me @Mustardseed86 ?

I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas. It's been very busy here, but I'm enjoying finally catching up with the thread.

Forgive me for quoting C .S. Lewis again, but this extract from The Magician's Nephew jumped out at me the other day. I think it perfectly sums up the sort of attitude atheists have towards God and perhaps how they might be if He revealed Himself to them. If you're not familiar with the world of Narnia, Aslan here represents Jesus:

"Bring out that creature," said Aslan. One of the Elephants lifted Uncle Andrew in its trunk and laid him at the Lion's feet. He was too frightened to move.
"Please, Aslan," said Polly, "Could you say something to - to unfrighten him? And then could you say something to prevent him from ever coming back here again?"
"Do you think he wants to?" said Aslan.
"Well, Aslan," said Polly, "he might send someone else. He's so excited about the bar off the lamp-post growing into a lamp-post tree and he thinks -"
"He thinks great folly, child" said Aslan. "This world is bursting with life for these few days because the song with which I called it into life still hangs in the air and rumbles in the ground. It will not be so for long. But I cannot tell that to this old sinner, and I cannot comfort him either; he has made himself unable to hear my voice. If I spoke to him, he would hear only growlings and roarings. Oh Adam's sons, how cleverly you defend yourselves against all that might do you good! But I will give him the only gift he is still able to receive."
He bowed his great head rather sadly, and breathed into the Magician's terrified face. "Sleep," he said. "Sleep and be separated for some few hours from all the torments you have devised for yourself."

Where believers see a majestic King, worthy of serving, others see a monster to be feared and avoided. Like the great Pharaoh who refused to release the captive Israelites, they have hardened their hearts. Jesus touched on this in Matthew 13:

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

You’ve quoted Narnia before - it has no relevance to atheists as god has no relevance to us.

pointythings · 28/12/2023 13:45

@Parker231 as I've said many times on threads like these, it's the concept of sin that I struggle with. It's utterly arbitrary. I understand the need for rules and laws - they are what builds a functioning society. I understand that some of those rules and laws will dovetail and overlap with religious prohibitions, again because they are conducive to keeping society functioning.

But all the nonsense about taking the Lord's name in vain, apostasy and sexual mores make no sense at all. Laws and rules need to change to reflect the changes in society, not be set in stone in the Bronze Age. And as the parent of LGBT young people, I refuse to accept that it is OK to have prohibitions against adult, consensual, stable, loving same-sex relationships.

Parker231 · 28/12/2023 13:45

sunflowerpinks · 28/12/2023 13:44

Who would really want to be punished for every single mistake they make in life

Every action has consequences. So rather than call it 'punishment' shouldn't it just be 'consequences'? And of course we all have to and should live with them.

Actions do have consequences but it has no relevance to any religion - just a part of normal life. Don’t think I’ve been “punished “ for anything .

Parker231 · 28/12/2023 13:48

pointythings · 28/12/2023 13:45

@Parker231 as I've said many times on threads like these, it's the concept of sin that I struggle with. It's utterly arbitrary. I understand the need for rules and laws - they are what builds a functioning society. I understand that some of those rules and laws will dovetail and overlap with religious prohibitions, again because they are conducive to keeping society functioning.

But all the nonsense about taking the Lord's name in vain, apostasy and sexual mores make no sense at all. Laws and rules need to change to reflect the changes in society, not be set in stone in the Bronze Age. And as the parent of LGBT young people, I refuse to accept that it is OK to have prohibitions against adult, consensual, stable, loving same-sex relationships.

Sin only exists if you want to believe in it - I don’t so doesn’t affect my life.

i have two friends who want a same sex church wedding - they aren’t allowed - so much for a church wanting to be inclusive!

sunflowerpinks · 28/12/2023 13:52

I don't believe it is wrong for acknowledging and being appreciative of Gods blessings

But how do you know whether what happened is indeed causes by God's actions?

What if the outcome had happened regardless, or if the outcome had been even better without God's influence?

Mustardseed86 · 28/12/2023 13:59

Parker231 · 28/12/2023 13:48

Sin only exists if you want to believe in it - I don’t so doesn’t affect my life.

i have two friends who want a same sex church wedding - they aren’t allowed - so much for a church wanting to be inclusive!

Parker, how many times have you had essentially this same conversation where you imply that things only exist if you want to believe in them, and other people point out that things either exist or they don't? I feel like it's been a good few by now.

I mean this without any disrespect, but do you have any issues with things like theory of mind, object permanence? Because it feels like you either don't understand this quite central point, or you're deliberately ignoring the logical fallacy here.

heyhohello · 28/12/2023 14:01

For that reason I don't believe these threads you've posted are likely to be overly helpful to anyone who is not already a believer.

@Parker231, which is an understandable belief considering your atheistic perspective. I understand that since you don't believe in any (g)God(s) that the idea of acting outside of the will of any (g)God(s) is non existent.

Parker231 · 28/12/2023 14:05

Mustardseed86 · 28/12/2023 13:59

Parker, how many times have you had essentially this same conversation where you imply that things only exist if you want to believe in them, and other people point out that things either exist or they don't? I feel like it's been a good few by now.

I mean this without any disrespect, but do you have any issues with things like theory of mind, object permanence? Because it feels like you either don't understand this quite central point, or you're deliberately ignoring the logical fallacy here.

I have no issues and not ignoring anything (which is why I’m still interested in this thread) but sin/heaven/hell doesn’t exist. And many agree with me - if you want to believe they exist, that’s fine but you’re not convincing others.

You’re ignoring my comment about the church refusing to marry my friends (probably the only religious people in my group of friends).

Mustardseed86 · 28/12/2023 14:05

heyhohello · 28/12/2023 13:27

@Mustardseed86

And, not least, acknowledging we are all in need of forgiveness is important! Who would really want to be punished for every single mistake they make in life and not be forgiven? It scares me that people think it is somehow wrong to be seeking forgiveness. Yes, we should actually repent and be seeking forgiveness and not do what is wrong on purpose or call what is wrong right but it is a good thing to acknowledge we are all in need of forgiveness!

I completely agree! I just think if people see faith being presented like this, it comes across in a certain way that puts most off. And I also don't think it's a full or compelling vision of our faith. Ultimately we don't know how God will choose and be able to reach others though.

heyhohello · 28/12/2023 14:07

Every action has consequences. So rather than call it 'punishment' shouldn't it just be 'consequences'? And of course we all have to and should live with them.

@sunflowerpinks, indeed every action does have consequences. Yet I believe in forgiveness, repentance and healing. Which can be absolutely vital in terms of moving on from those consequences. Otherwise we could just be stuck with the punishment with absolutely nowhere to go from there. If there is absolutely no forgiveness getting the opportunity to actually repent can be difficult. The saying 'A leopard doesn't change its spots comes to mind'.

Mustardseed86 · 28/12/2023 14:09

Parker231 · 28/12/2023 14:05

I have no issues and not ignoring anything (which is why I’m still interested in this thread) but sin/heaven/hell doesn’t exist. And many agree with me - if you want to believe they exist, that’s fine but you’re not convincing others.

You’re ignoring my comment about the church refusing to marry my friends (probably the only religious people in my group of friends).

Sorry for ignoring those, but I feel like that's an issue for these friends to deal with in prayer and through communicating with their church. It's not really up to me to comment, and I don't set the rules.

The thing is that your posts continually say things like "It's not true for me because I don't believe it." But in fact it's either not true for anyone, or true for everyone. I understand which side of that you fall on but not why you seem to imply there's a separate reality depending on personal beliefs.

heyhohello · 28/12/2023 14:09

I just think if people see faith being presented like this, it comes across in a certain way that puts most off. And I also don't think it's a full or compelling vision of our faith. Ultimately we don't know how God will choose and be able to reach others though.

@Mustardseed86, understood. But it is impossible to present the whole of our faith, the whole of God!!!!! In one easy to manage chunk! 😉

Mustardseed86 · 28/12/2023 14:10

heyhohello · 28/12/2023 14:09

I just think if people see faith being presented like this, it comes across in a certain way that puts most off. And I also don't think it's a full or compelling vision of our faith. Ultimately we don't know how God will choose and be able to reach others though.

@Mustardseed86, understood. But it is impossible to present the whole of our faith, the whole of God!!!!! In one easy to manage chunk! 😉

I agree...but surely it's only remotely effective if you believe to start with! Otherwise it just comes across as someone trying to scare other people who think it's nonsense anyway.

heyhohello · 28/12/2023 14:13

i have two friends who want a same sex church wedding - they aren’t allowed - so much for a church wanting to be inclusive!

@Parker231, some churches would happily marry them. The Christian church does move on and learn from previous actions. The church has had to work out what is from God and what is merely cultural since the beginnings of time!

Mustardseed86 · 28/12/2023 14:14

For example, for me it would be more productive to have a conversation that starts with Jesus, his life and the evidence on which we base our faith. Or even personal experiences of God. Not asking people who either already believe and therefore will answer yes/or hopefully yes depending on other aspects of theology...or people who will think "No, and neither are you, stop trying to guilt and scare me into believing something I don't think has any basis in fact."

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