to ask why you wouldn’t sign the petition?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

The petition set up by Amy Desir (one of the women who self identified as a man to attend a men only swim session) is asking the government to consult women on privacy and dignity that could be removed or impacted by proposed changes to the gender recognition act.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

The petition is merely asking for debate - doesn’t it come to something when women have to petition the government to have to ask to debate their safety?

Most gender critical feminists recognise trans human rights but we don’t want their identity and wishes to be placed above our safety.
I posted on MN recently about my experience of living in a domestic violence refuge as a child and now I was terrified of men, a male bodied person presenting as a female in that safe space would have terrified me and impacted my PTSD more than the other experiences already have.

If you haven’t signed it why not? Please reconsider, if only so both sides can be heard. Of course signing isn’t mandatory and I’m not angry but I would be interested in hearing more.

If you would like to sign it, you can find it here
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 - your details are kept private. Please consider sharing.

@Ereshkigal @MrsMcGarry

I think it did come across as a bit of a Fuck You, my bus petition is more important than your right to uphold a female only space as a victim of rape.

Perhaps that was genuinely not the intention, but it did seem that way.

So reactions were perhaps not the best worded.

The whole fucking problem with this “debate” is that it’s polarising an issue that doesn’t need to be polarised.

Let the law stand as it is. Independent checks and balances, including medical opinions, that people with penises being called women in law are genuinely not considered a threat to other women.

The “Anyone can already enter a bathroom” argument is unhelpful to BOTH sides. It really is. If we could agree with the trans activists lobby that that’s a simplistic and flawed argument we might get somewhere.

I am happy to be “on the wrong side of history” by signing this petition:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

I’ll wait to be questioned by my DC and let them re-educate me if they can give me a reasoned argument about biology and law-making.

In the meantime, I’ll sign in case I can safeguard their rights.

I read a lot of comments about 'transphobia' on here and on other threads (I am relatively new to this issue, finding it about 4 months ago from a position of complete obliviousness and political correctness as dictated by my employment and explained by the very lovely gay bloke I sat with), but I really don't see any comments that are transphobic or are trying to remove transgender rights.

I do understand that some posters are on this site for the 'wrong' reasons and come here to make mischief or to pretend to be someone they are not (usually hairy of hand posters posing as women), but they are in the minority and are usually sussed out.

I would be really interested in someone showing me a comment that is genuinely transphobic or that advocates the removal of trans rights.

I really don't see any comments that are transphobic or are trying to remove transgender rights.

I can help you; there are really, really frequent posts about repealing the existing gender recognition act - you really wouldn't have to go too far to find them on the feminist boards - and even if you couldn't be arsed looking you have to wait too long for it to come up again.

But here's a thread where it comes up quite a bit, just as an example: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3189967-Trans-debate-What-doe-people-want

And here's another one: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3193236-Living-as-a-woman?pg=10

If you get stuck in you'll find a good many posters openly call for the repeal of the GRA; Datun and thebewilderness, to name just two posters you might recognise.

Transgender (transsexual) rights can be dealt with under the Equality Act. Posters argue that the GRA is an outdated piece of legislation and the nature of the debate has changed. It's not possible to change sex so we should dispense with the legal fiction that it is. It was meant for specific purposes which are rarely the case now. It's not "transphobia", it's an opinion about whether a specific piece of legislation is needed.

Don't you think you should @ in @Datun and @thebewilderness if you're going to talk about them so they have right of reply about your misrepresentation of their positions?

Oh, and as for transphobia all I can show you are threads full of post after post of deletions, like this one: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3159058-Disgusted-by-all-the-transphobia-here?pg=5&order=

All I can tell you is how often I report posts for transphobia, and they are deleted. So I suppose I'm not wrong.

I can tell you about one post I'll never forget reporting, that said the exact words, "I am a transphobe. Bite me."

I can tell you I post a lot on trans threads these days. And at one point I had seven deletion messages of entire threads in my "I'm on" section. I always have at least 2 or 3 deletion messages at any one time.

Most recent deleted threads include one which was basically reams of posters expressing how sexually repulsive they found the idea of sleeping with transpeople. One was about someone thinking their friend was overreacting about her DC being bullied by schoolmates and teachers because it was for being trans so, you know, no big deal. There was one - I can't remember if it was deleted - about people taking themselves off the organ donation list just in case a transperson got their organs. There have been countless deleted threads about Lily Madigan, recently one about lily in the context of disability, which was roundly condemned before being deleted.

Not everyone here is a transphobe - most aren't, most are just reasonable women with reasonable concerns they want to air. Some however are not.

Happy with the @mentions Ereshkigal, although I have discussed this personally with Datun on several occasions so I'm sure if she's changed her position since then she will let me know.

There was one - I can't remember if it was deleted - about people taking themselves off the organ donation list just in case a transperson got their organs

In case they got their uterus so they can do unethical Frankenstein experiments. There is a difference.

Oh, and I didn't say wanting the repeal of the GRA was transphobic, but that poster asked for examples of users wanting the removal of transgender rights. Which is what I have given them.

Happy with the @mentions Ereshkigal

Oh my, that's a relief!

No you didn't, you replied to a post saying they'd seen no transphobia or removal of transgender rights with bla bla bla actually they want to repeal the GRA. Thus implying this is transphobia. Because you are disingenuous in the extreme.

I can tell you about one post I'll never forget reporting, that said the exact words, "I am a transphobe. Bite me."

Because the definition of a "transphobe" includes anyone with a regard for women's rights.

transphobia or removal of transgender rights

My first post was giving examples of removing rights, my second was about transphobia.

You replied whilst I was writing the second.

I was writing two because I didn't want a wall of text, and also because my phone keeps fucking up and I lose what I'm writing, so I wanted to post the first before moving on so as not to risk losing it.

Hope that clears it up.

Two things, two posts.

Righto.

If people say stuff like "I am a transphobe, bite me" - then it's probably because the word 'transphobe' has lost all meaning, and is bandied about like confetti at women talking about women's biological rights and women's issues.

The list of things people have been called transphobic for is becoming ludicrous.

Women talking about FGM, breastfeeding, wombs, childbirth etc, as a women's issue are now being called transphobic. Chestfeeding anyone? "Menstruator" - no thanks. It's kind of a "well if that makes me 'transphobic' - so be it!" attitude.

Yes Rat, I can 'be arsed' to look. I am interested in all sides of this issue and although I really haven't seen any posts that are transphobic, I will look at those that you have provided links for.

I am interested in and quite prepared to take all views on board, but I suppose my basis is that I do not want to lose my rights, privacy and dignity in favour of others who should be able to have their rights, dignity and spaces, without taking mine. My own experience of transwomen has been mixed - some negative, some very positive. Although that mirrors my experience of men, I would not expect to be sharing my spaces with those men. I am a private and quite shy person, who lacks confidence and can sometimes be awkward socially. It definitely stopped me speaking up when a transwoman lifted her skirt in the ladies' loos and peed in the washbasin, followed by a (hopefully pretend) hand-job, much to the amusement of her drunken buddies. That was my most negative experience. My most positive, was helping a transwoman friend choose clothes that fit and looked good.

Sorry helpthetigers, that wasn't a dig about being "arsed", it's just my turn of phrase!

I really just meant to imply that you probably have better things to do, but not to worry because you wouldn't have to wait long for it to come back up again

FWIW the only reason I can always be arsed is because maternity leave is loooong and I'm not the natural "stay at home with the baby" type!

I don't think that a man saying he is a woman makes him a woman. If that makes me a transphobe bite me.

When they start teaching in gcse biology in schools that a man saying he is a woman is a biological fact that cannot be discussed or disputed then I might start to consider it. Until then I reserve the right to express my opinion without being called a transphobe.

The word is becoming meaningless because it's shouted out so loud, so often and so unnecessarily.

Don't say that, Witchfinder Rat will have to report you immediately for extreme transphobia! How dare you not personally be cowed and chastened by a largely meaningless slur! That just makes it worse!

Bad law has already been written based on beliefs instead of scientific fact. This is not the first time and it is unlikely to be the last that badly written law has had unintended consequences.

As far as I know GID, gender identity disorder, is the only delusional disorder that is treated with affirming the delusion rather than the methods used to treat ever other delusional disorder. This is a result of the lobbying efforts by those who have the disorder and the professionals who want to appease them while still maintaining their ability to qualify for insurance to cover the drugs and surgery. These compromise efforts are stated in the discussions by the professionals who write the recommendations.

I am deeply disturbed that all political parties in the UK are prepared to write policy based on the 8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
They are trying to roll back women's rights under the guise of equality.
My question remains the same.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex, and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?
I am outraged by this, but I am not astonished that talking about it results in demonizing uppity women.

Exactly right, bewilderness.

Law needs solid definitions, based in fact.

How can the law define 'gender identity' or 'woman' - when the definition seems to be "what I say it is'.

How can the law protect women from discrimination, if woman means 'anyone who says they are a woman'. Which probably is the motivation behind a lot of this.

If you get stuck in you'll find a good many posters openly call for the repeal of the GRA; Datun and thebewilderness, to name just two posters you might recognise.

Am I to understand that it is your position, Rat, that calling for the repeal of the GRA, an act that mandates affirmation of Gender Identity Disorder, is grounds for being designated a transphobe? Srsly? I am a non believer in the efficacy of affirmation therapy in delusional disorders, but I do not think that makes me mentally ill, as you claim.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/contents

No bewilderness, I don't think wanting to repeal the GRA makes someone a transphobe, I clarified that previously too. The poster said they have seen anyone calling for such OR any transphobia. I have examples of each, but didn't mean to imply that the former was in any way akin to the latter.

Rat, I normally become exasperated at some of the posters who misunderstand a pp and get into a strop, but it looks like I am as guilty, so thank you for pointing out your meaning!
I have looked at most of the posts on the threads where you provided the links. I agree that there are some shouty comments and many are quite aggressive (on both sides of the argument), with some statements being a wee bit OTT, but I have read through the tone and wording, to understand what was actually being said.
I did wonder if the Mike OP was a real post as I know think that I could have done a better job of making up such a post if I was wanting to make a point. Some of the statements made were certainly misogynistic and a bit outrageous. Tbh, it also occurred to me that it might be some sort of reverse post by someone trying to stir up some shit. If so, it worked! The subsequent comments were quite informative and interesting, creating a whole new set of searches that I could look up too.
Apart from the ranty aspects and a couple of comments that really weren't helpful, I read posts from people who were passionate in their concerns and were fighting their corner. I couldn't really assess the 'Bite Me' comment as I would have had to read it in context, but as you said, it had been deleted.
I also gathered that the posts that had been deleted had contravened guidelines and I would accept easily that at least quite a few of those had been transphobic. If they were, then that is not OK, obviously.
I suppose that the nature of the debate raises fire and the personalities involved are able to let rip on MN, as it is that sort of forum. I really don't like some of the (imo) anti-female wording used on MN, but I recognise fully that this is my problem and I need to get over it! Some of my favourite MNers use the 'c' word and others, so I can put up and shut up. I think that MN is a forum (some sections in particular) for gritty and full-on discussions that are really interesting and informative.
What I didn't see in the comments that remained though, was transphobia. I had a discussion with a friend who is about as pro trans rights as it is possible to be, and she agreed after I asked her to read through the posts (although I don't know how many she did actually wade through).
I didn't take the inference that posts called for the removal of trans rights, merely the view that they should be given rights, respect, safe spaces etc, of their own. That is a view that I share. Just because the TRAs do not agree with that stance, does not make it transphobic. I really, really don't hate anyone or have any transphobic views, I just don't want to share my space with men, least of all those like the one who I found really intimidating in the ladies' loos. Not one of the women in the queue felt able to speak up, partly as there were a few in the drunken group and we had no idea if we would have been subjected to abuse or worse. I would also think twice about sharing private spaces with my friend who I helped to shop for clothes. She is an autogynephile (hope that I've spelled that correctly!), as I have realised since I've been reading up on the issues. Wearing tights absolutely doesn't turn me on in the slightest, neither does looking at lipsticks in a shop. Those two activities do with her however, and although I would trust that she would be respectful and has never behaved inappropriately, this is more than a hint to me that she really doesn't share what it is to be a woman.

Anyway, I hope that I don't sound too preachy or arsey here, I just wanted to explain that I did look at those links etc and have taken quite a lot from them.
Hope that you enjoy your maternity leave Rat and keep posting your views. Both sides of an argument are obviously better than just one even if I don't agree with the transphobia comments , otherwise it is just a lecture and I wouldn't have learned anything.