to ask why you wouldn’t sign the petition?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

The petition set up by Amy Desir (one of the women who self identified as a man to attend a men only swim session) is asking the government to consult women on privacy and dignity that could be removed or impacted by proposed changes to the gender recognition act.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

The petition is merely asking for debate - doesn’t it come to something when women have to petition the government to have to ask to debate their safety?

Most gender critical feminists recognise trans human rights but we don’t want their identity and wishes to be placed above our safety.
I posted on MN recently about my experience of living in a domestic violence refuge as a child and now I was terrified of men, a male bodied person presenting as a female in that safe space would have terrified me and impacted my PTSD more than the other experiences already have.

If you haven’t signed it why not? Please reconsider, if only so both sides can be heard. Of course signing isn’t mandatory and I’m not angry but I would be interested in hearing more.

If you would like to sign it, you can find it here
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 - your details are kept private. Please consider sharing.

Someone gave a great example basically saying
my FIL is lovely & I feel safe with them but I still dont want to share an open plan changing room with them.
It's not "just" about safety we also separate for dignity.

Because I don't believe that every person with a penis should be punished for the actions of the man who raped you.

But actually - I'm not that bothered about the issue anymore. I've got more signatures on a local petition about bus timetables. You can all carry on believing that rights are a zero sum game as long as you like whilst the rest of us carry on co-existing with trans women and fighting the real battle against the patriarchy

Why are men's feelings more important than mine? Why do you want to let men into female spaces because of their feelings? And you say you aren't a virtue signalling handmaiden? You make me laugh.

Good luck with the Lib Dems, dear.

my FIL is lovely & I feel safe with them but I still dont want to share an open plan changing room with them. I wouldn't have wanted to share an open plan changing room with my MIL. I don't shop in places with open plan changing rooms as I like my privacy and I couldn't care less who is in the next cubicle. To be honest most places have got rid of the communal changing rooms haven't they? Places I've shopped lately for myself or with DD are M&S, Debenhams, New Look, Dorothy Perkins, Sainsburys. They all had cubicles, no open plan/communal changing rooms in any of them.

peacheachpearplum
Lots of swimming pools round here have no cubicles including the school ones. I wasnt talking about shops.

Swimming pools round here have both, an open area and cubicles. I've never seen a pool with no cubicles. I use a Victorian pool and a very modern one and they both have cubicles. I would be campaigning for cubicles.

Why are men's feelings more important than mine? Why do you want to let men into female spaces because of their feelings? And you say you aren't a virtue signalling handmaiden? You make me laugh.

You are pathetic, with your point scoring.

Good luck with the Lib Dems, dear.

Bloody hell Ereshkigal I don't think it needs spelling out why I've collated that little diatribe of yours.

Undoubtedly MrsMcGarry you're aware you're not the only one to be on the receiving end of such a barrage of such "rational and respectful" gendered insults, so I'm sure you won't be taking it personally. But just in case (because online really can mess you up a little bit in the life too) here's a from me.

@MrsMcGarry I’m sorry to hear that.
Have a read of this, if you feel like it - it articulated my position on this whole sorry state of things:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/mar/31/man-explains-what-means-be-woman

peacheachpearplum
Cubicles sounds great in theory but where do they get the space to add them? Or money!
30 kids can get changed easily in the small school pool changing area - i would guess you could wedge 8 or10 cubicles in. And i still wouldnt be happy because an open top/bottom cubicle in a closed room is potentially unsafe. I cant imagine how a poolside changing village would work in that space.

My reasons are legion.

1. It doesn't say who will do this 'representing'. The views of those who claim to want debate, range from those who are mildly gender critical to those who are rabidly anti trans. The rabidly anti trans are most shouty, I suspect they'll be doing the representing and that makes me flinch.

1. Over 204 groups have already been consulted on changes to the gender recognition act, including Rape Crisis, Women's Aid, the Prison Service, Radical Feminist groups and Shelia Jefferris. That's a lot of consulting.

1. I don't agree with the premiss, that the comfort of majority groups outweighs the right of inclusion of minorities. I grew up in the 1970s when it was accepted that the straight, white, English people 'owned' society and that the benefits of living in this society were their's to bestow on the rest of us. I didn't like that.

1. I think that there is a tiny but vocal minority on MN who would like to see trans people stripped of all rights, even those who have been living in the acquired gender for years, doing no harm to anyone. I think that these people have deliberately spread fear amount the more moderate members, have misrepresented what the law is at the moment and misrepresented how it might be in the future. I think that they are as happy to use the threat of male violence to make women conform to their views, as any male offender is. I'm a feminist, that pisses me off.

1. I'm all for debate and I don't like the way in which women who don't agree with what this petition asks for, are met with outright hostility by some; 'handmaidens', 'pathetic', 'virtue signalling', are not reasonable ways to address other with who don't agree with you.

1. I don't like the insinuation that I, in some way, 'don't understand' becasue I'm not gripped by a moral panic.

1. I don't like the way that those who would like me to sign this petition play fast and loose with the facts. When I point out that Ireland and Canada have self ID and it's fine, they make up things about the British prison system not allocating places in prison on a case by case basis, which simply isn't true and has buggery flip to do with public loos or changing rooms.

There is no evidence that it's 'fine' in countries that have self ID.

Self ID makes voyeurism and indecent exposure legal in a women's space.

Self ID makes reporting indecent exposure and voyeurism in a women's space a transphobic hate crime.

Voila! You have transed away the problem. Everything is fine!

Waddlelikeapenguin at the Victorian pool I use the cubicles are at the side of the pool and are unisex. So it would just mean a wider walkway at the side of the pool if they weren't there. There is also the advantage that there are lots of people around, the life guards can see if people are messing around. Much more sensible in my opinion and no problem about women's spaces. At the modern pool thee is a communal area and a line of cubicles for people who want to use them, still space for a class of children.

There is no evidence that it's 'fine' in countries that have self ID.

No, what you actually need to do, is to prove that it's not 'fine' is to show evidence, actual evidence, that crime rates have increased under self ID in Ireland or Canada. If you are arguing against something and expect other people's support, it's your job to supply the evidence.

Self ID makes voyeurism and indecent exposure legal in a women's space.

No it doesn't. I'm a lesbian, I find women sexually attractive. I don't perv over them in changing rooms or public loos but if I did, I'd be committing a crime and they'd be perfectly entitled to call the police, who wouldn't be shy about charging me.

Self ID makes reporting indecent exposure and voyeurism in a women's space a transphobic hate crime.

This lie is dangerous to women and children. Imagine if someone believed you nonsense, experienced voyeurism or indecent exposure and didn't call the police because of it? Do you really want signatures for a petition so much, that you're happy to risk that?

The first requirement for committing a hate crime is to actually commit a crime, calling the police isn't a crime.

Honestly, take a step back here and think about the potential damage the lies you're telling could do to women who are the victims of sex crimes.

StillScreaming, excellent posts, wish we had a thanks button.

I’m really sorry but I’m not that bothered about the trans issue. I see so many threads on MN about it. I am okay with trans people having more rights.

I do worry about the scandals in Rochdale and Telford and the gender pay gap and internet porn. These are the issues that bother me.

Yes yes.

Yes yes to stillscreaming I mean.

NoSquirrels. Great article.

Yeah, Stillscreaming's top seven covers the bulk of it doesn't it.

I’m glad to see that this thread is still facilitating discussion from both sides.

I think Hadley's article is helping today :-)

@CircleSquareCircleSquare

There's no discussion on this topic, none whatsoever. When I ask my questions the only reply I get is 'what is a woman?', which, while it's interesting (ish) on a theoretical level, has less relevance to my life that my own personal favorite theoretical question of, 'what's the opposite of ham?'