to ask why you wouldn’t sign the petition?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

The petition set up by Amy Desir (one of the women who self identified as a man to attend a men only swim session) is asking the government to consult women on privacy and dignity that could be removed or impacted by proposed changes to the gender recognition act.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

The petition is merely asking for debate - doesn’t it come to something when women have to petition the government to have to ask to debate their safety?

Most gender critical feminists recognise trans human rights but we don’t want their identity and wishes to be placed above our safety.
I posted on MN recently about my experience of living in a domestic violence refuge as a child and now I was terrified of men, a male bodied person presenting as a female in that safe space would have terrified me and impacted my PTSD more than the other experiences already have.

If you haven’t signed it why not? Please reconsider, if only so both sides can be heard. Of course signing isn’t mandatory and I’m not angry but I would be interested in hearing more.

If you would like to sign it, you can find it here
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 - your details are kept private. Please consider sharing.

Stompy my view may not be the same as all others but if every trans person is as they say they are, then fine but what about the dickheads who will take advantage of that?
We all know predatory men, most of us have been around one who has scared us, attacked us or raped us - or at least we kno someone who has - how do we tell them to leave female (sex segregated not gender segregated) spaces if they say they identify as a woman?

And why do I get thrown out of a feminism group in Manchester for pointing out I need to know if someone is a man or woman when it comes to prescribing drugs?

Why is it transphobic to ask if you could please talk to us before you redefine us?

Signed.

Beautifully and succinctly put seek.

the assumption that they are somehow lying about their feelings in order to cause harm was around then too.

I find it massively insulting that the struggle for gay rights is being lumped in with this trans madness.

I sympathise with gender dysphoria of course but the fact remains that being a woman is not a feeling. At least not one that any transwoman seems able to define.

There is nothing at all wrong with a man presenting in a feminine way if he so chooses. It doesn't mean he is a woman.

I don't believe that trans people are lying about their feelings around their gender in order to access single gender areas they couldn't otherwise come into. I think they are, you know, telling the truth about how they feel.

I understand this. I agree with it. I want transwomen to be respected and protected.

The petition is simply calling for women's groups to be consulted on how self id might affect certain aspects regarding the safety of women. All women. Including transwomen.

Self id would allow all men to access women only safe spaces. Including those men that would take advantage of the law to harm women. And to harm transwomen.

This is all we are asking for. To consult and discuss.

Please sign if you agree that this would be a useful step forward.

Thank you.

Is it coincidence that all the dissenters on the thread are dinosaurs?

stompy even assuming that every single person claiming they were trans and accessing their preferred changing rooms, sessions, shortlists etc simply because they ‘felt like a woman’ - assuming every single one had only genuine, non-harmful intent and were just trying to live their lives - do you not think that women deserve to be consulted AT ALL? Really?!
Seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water in an aim to be PC to me.

Thanks for the reminder, have signed.

stompy as I understand it, the point the swimmers were trying to make was that the guidelines that Swim England had already produced,( which state that swimmers could swim with and change with the gender with which they identify, and that anyone objecting needs "reeducation", ) are set with so low a bar of protection that they are open to abuse. As the women demonstrated by temporarily self declaring as men and gaining access to their segregated swim, with the acceptance of the pool involved that this did not break their guidelines. To me this isn't about transphobic. I support adults' freedom to identify as they wish and believe that trans people experience genuine anguish and need support. But the idea that you self declare, and those who challenge you in a segregated space are then guilty of a hate crime, is itself unsafe. It not only trivialises the idea that many women need safe spaces, for religious or safety or mental we'll bring reasons, but in my opinion also trivialises the difficult and often agonising journey that genuine transpeople travel. We have always had an "honour system" of enabling transwomen in our spaces. Opening them up to anyone on their own trivial say so and without the ability for women to challenge someone in those spaces is ridiculous. It's not transphobic to point this out.

I’m also too frightened of come back if it gets out I have signed it. Thank you to those who have been brave enough to sign - this is an important issue all round and deserves proper discussion, whatever the outcome.

Just because all trains are headed to Kings X, doesn’t mean the people who want to use the stopper service rather than the express service are wrong.

If we lump trans woman in with women, at what stage are born women allowed to resume talking about issues that impact only them? When would be allowed to do that or do we have to wait until we are given the ok by the new women? Because my cousin died in childbirth and her sister was told her experience “was not the experience of all women” so she was transphobic to talk about it. When would it be ok for us to talk about that without placing trans people at the centre of the discussion? I’d like to ask that during the consultation.

The woman who is cycling for the 93 women killed by their partners in 2016was recently told she was a transphobic for not placing trans women in the centre of her fundraising even though no trans women were killed by their partner in 2016.
When will the new women let the old women do something for the old women without us being told off? Can we debate that? Or do we shut up about that too?

Stompythedinosaur
If you are a woman who is pro GRA then why dont YOU want to be consulted??

It’s not transphobia at all it’s just asking for debate and to give women a voice.

It’s thought police and frankly fascist not to allow this debate to happen.

McTufty It won’t come out that you’ve signed at all it’s protected data

It's not transphobic to want discussion about it and how it can best be managed. I don't understand why women wouldn't want a say. Personally my stance is that I am very supportive of genuine transgender men and women. I always have been. However self ID opens up the door to safe spaces for people who aren't genuine and it concerns me because then women (and genuine transwomen) won't be in a position to challenge it. . We need to talk and find a way forward to keep all groups of women safe. At the moment it seems that everyone gets a say apart from the huge part of the population that it will have the largest impact on. Biological women.

It’s not transphobic to ask for debate.
Activists are using #nodebate to shut down women on Twitter constantly. You shut down debates when your argument is flawed or you want to silence a group of people. TRAs would love it if women shut up and went away, yet they so want to be like us. Surely if they want to be women, they’d want to listen to and be empathetic to our struggles? Nope. They want to shut us up and shut us out.
This is for the next generations, we need to let our daughters and grand daughters have a continued voice in the conversation about womanhood and everything that goes with it.

I could cry about this. Less than 10000 people are interested in signing. It’s like a lost cause. It’ll be too late before women realise the consequences.

I have no idea why it is transphobic to discuss changes that will effect women, however you want to define that. please could those who say it is transphobic explain why it is so?

how do we tell them to leave female (sex segregated not gender segregated) spaces if they say they identify as a woman?

This is it isn't it. If an obvious man walked into the toilet then it would once have been easy to politely say something. But recently I was in a toilet queue, and a man, who clearly looked like and dressed like a man was in the same queue. There was no queue for the mens toilet next door at all. None of the women in the queue felt comfortable saying anything, including myself, until eventually a women finally spoke up and said the men's is next door. He apologized and left the queue. But with self ID we will simply not be able to say that for fear of being called transphobic. Being unable to call people out puts us at risk.

ThroughThickAndThin01 I think most people haven’t considered it or don’t know about it. Hopefully over the months people will come to understand

But we need 500 a day to get to 100,000 by the end of the petition term. If we get 10,000 we get a measly acknowledgement, at 100,000 it is a debate.
I think people are waiting for others to do it in their name. Soon it will be too late.

Signed

Great, ANOTHER anti-trans thread on MN.
I'm woefully ill-informed... except about the rabid evangelical tone of the anti--trans threads on MN. I know a lot about that. It's evidence enough to know I'm not interested in your cause.

Don't think I qualify as a feminist, either. I am so thoroughly not in your club, OP. You don't want to associate with people like me.

Why don’t you qualify as a feminist? That’s not on my say so.

I want debate.