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Petitions and activism

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

to ask why you wouldn’t sign the petition?

725 replies

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 21/03/2018 18:24

The petition set up by Amy Desir (one of the women who self identified as a man to attend a men only swim session) is asking the government to consult women on privacy and dignity that could be removed or impacted by proposed changes to the gender recognition act.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

The petition is merely asking for debate - doesn’t it come to something when women have to petition the government to have to ask to debate their safety?

Most gender critical feminists recognise trans human rights but we don’t want their identity and wishes to be placed above our safety.
I posted on MN recently about my experience of living in a domestic violence refuge as a child and now I was terrified of men, a male bodied person presenting as a female in that safe space would have terrified me and impacted my PTSD more than the other experiences already have.

If you haven’t signed it why not? Please reconsider, if only so both sides can be heard. Of course signing isn’t mandatory and I’m not angry but I would be interested in hearing more.

If you would like to sign it, you can find it here
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 - your details are kept private. Please consider sharing.

OP posts:
Original poster
CircleSquareCircleSquare · 27/03/2018 20:19

LyannaStarktheWolfMaid

Urgh. The rampant transphobia on here is ruining mumsnet. sad

^^

What’s your definition of “transphobia” please? Because there seem to be so many differing views of what it is. Is it being violent or discriminatory toward trans people? Or as some seem to suggest simple quoting the dictionary at trans activists?

OP posts:
Custardo · 27/03/2018 20:39

for those of you that were kind enouh to answer my questions on another thread when i genunely had not a fucking clue what this was about - i hope you know i mean this genuinley and i am not goading.

those of you who are on the side of signing the petition are yourselves in danger of drownig out debate. you will not contenance another view and genuinely debate.

you do (en masse) come across as a force de tour - which if someone is on your side is great, howeer if someone disagrees - whether it is your intention or not you do come across as intimidating.

i hope that there is actually a thread where people who don't want to sign the petition can debate and see your POV and make a fully informed decision.

it does seem that some posters on this thread at least are not signing as a 'fuck you' as a result of the way their opinions have been receved

which i am sure you dont want.

it would be good if there was a non threatening space women could debate this - i hope you see the irony

Custardo · 27/03/2018 20:40

oh i signed btw - and i agree that we should be consulted

NoSquirrels · 27/03/2018 21:15

@custardo I agree. But it’s hard to create that, because it’s difficult to cut through all the “oh ffs you’re bigots” stuff. Which then leads straight to the defensive shouty tone.

That’s why I was so cross about the teen troll thread - because the troll OP was from the POV of a teenager, people were kind and thoughtful in their explanations of concerns. It didn’t get bogged down in statistics and all the rest.

I’m glad you signed. Did you persuade your DD?

Original poster
CircleSquareCircleSquare · 27/03/2018 21:17

I’m glad that people not necessarily “on the same side” are signing too.

OP posts:
YimminiYoudar · 28/03/2018 03:02

I haven't signed the petition as I think it's badly worded and will backfire massively if it is successful in reaching the threshold for signatures.

If MPs do get a debate on this scheduled they will merely be falling over themselves to demonstrate their inclusive credentials and show how wholeheartedly they have drunk the kool aid.

There are plenty of female "handmaidens" who will want to virtue-signal how inclusive they are and haven't peak-transed. If the government then agrees to "consult women" there will be a concerted effort to ensure the loudest shouting voices are from female TRA-fans.

MrsMcGarry · 28/03/2018 12:00

And Yimmini shows why I haven't signed.

I am not a handamiden. I am not virtue signalling. I understand that there are concerns about people who will abuse self-id. I want those concerns to be addressed and taken into consideration. However I also wish there to be consideration of the needs of transwomen.

I recognise that there are those on the other "side" who share my concerns and want rights for transpeople. But their voices are being drowned out of the argument by people like LM throwing around "die TERF" just as much as my voice is being drowned out by being called a handmaiden TRA.

I have my own Brexit analogy. I campaigned for Remain. However I am not fully pro EU as I recognise that there are some issues with the bureaucracy of the EU and have been working to reform it from within for years. But atm I am not doing that, and I am having to work with people whose vision of a Federal Europe I disagree with because the extremes of the other side are so awful.

People like Jeremy Corbyn and Danial Hannan, whilst disagreeing with each other, each have legitimate anti-EU arguments around free global trade and state aid to ensure protection of jobs which need to be addressed. But by joining with the hateful racist dog whistle politics of Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and others on the Leave side they guarantee that those of us who would agree with some of their views must vehemently oppose them.

The Misandry inherent in some people's anti-trans attitude, the accusation that most transwomen are AGP's, the inability to allow someone to define themselves means that I have to put myself on the opposite side to those who are raising reasonable concerns about self-ID.

We seem to be unable to not polarise an argument anyore.

Skarossinkplunger · 28/03/2018 15:50

And Yimmini shows why I haven't signed.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Fairenuff · 28/03/2018 16:26

So what is your alternative proposal Yimmni to bring this subject into mainstream discussion?

SpringHen · 28/03/2018 16:27

But full time transwomen are already protected! self ID wont change things for them!

self ID lumps genuine full time transpeople in with so many other groups with whom they do not align.

Full time transwomen are speaking out AGAINST self ID
(older) Transexuals and fetishists and crossdressers are speaking out against the agenda and groups that are driving forces behind self ID

So to say that you are not signing because you support the genuine transpeople out there makes it sound like your research on the matter has been contained within certain echo chambers.

Original poster
CircleSquareCircleSquare · 28/03/2018 19:46

I’d love to know how to bring this debate int the mainstream? So many people cannot believe whatsoever that this is happening, no idea.

Here’s the link to the petition again so you don’t have to scroll back petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

OP posts:
MrsMcGarry · 30/03/2018 17:20

No they aren't. To get a GRC you have to have lived as the opposite gender for 2 years. How do you do that without being able to use the changing rooms and toilets of the opposite gender?

SpringHen · 30/03/2018 17:28

No they aren't. To get a GRC you have to have lived as the opposite gender for 2 years. How do you do that without being able to use the changing rooms and toilets of the opposite gender?

TIMs are allowed in male toilets and changing rooms, its not as if theyre being prevented from peeing & shopping!!

MrsMcGarry · 30/03/2018 18:12

So you really think that a person with gender dysphoria - one of your "full time transwomen" - should use the male toilets and changing rooms whilst dressed as a woman for the two years necessary to fulfil the requirements of the GRC?

SpringHen · 30/03/2018 18:33

if its a new "feeling" to them, yeah!
if its not, theyll already have 2 years under their belt so to speak!

SpringHen · 30/03/2018 18:34

p.s. what is your issue with men "dressed as women" using male toilets?
Mens toilets will suit their biological functions just fine!

SpringHen · 30/03/2018 18:37

women in trousers use womens toilets all the time! Im wearing trousers and a hoodie right now. I will use the womens loos.

Ereshkigal · 30/03/2018 18:55

the inability to allow someone to define themselves

What does that even mean? It has nothing to do with what people think they are. It's about reality.

Original poster
CircleSquareCircleSquare · 30/03/2018 19:05

you have to have lived as the opposite gender for 2 years.

And how do you do that?

I’m a woman with a fair bit of facial hair and a love of trainers, am I living as the opposite gender?

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 30/03/2018 19:12

So you really think that a person with gender dysphoria - one of your "full time transwomen" - should use the male toilets and changing rooms whilst dressed as a woman for the two years necessary to fulfil the requirements of the GRC?

Yes. Why is it only on women to be "inclusive"? They can't be women. They can't "live as women". It's a ridiculous concept. They're male. Sucks but there it is.

peacheachpearplum · 30/03/2018 20:14

There are plenty of female "handmaidens" who will want to virtue-signal how inclusive they are

That is exactly the sort of attitude that would stop me signing.

MrsMcGarry · 30/03/2018 22:51

So let me get this straight.

We can't allow people with penises who identify as women into female toilets because all people with penises are horrid and want to attack women.

But we should expect people with penises who identify as women to go into male toilets where they will be perfectly safe with other people with penises.

And just like that my sympathy with all the rational arguments that people like @NoSquirrels make about the genuine need to ensure some women's concerns over safety are addressed disappears.

Because even if you don't want to accept that transwomen are women, they are still people and they still deserve consideration and respect.

If I did subscibe to a view that there is a collective sisterhood that can be defined by their chromosomes some of you would make me ashamed to be part of it.

Ereshkigal · 30/03/2018 23:10

We can't allow people with penises who identify as women into female toilets because all people with penises are horrid and want to attack women.

That's a very disingenuous representation of why women don't want males in female sex segregated spaces. Why don't you think women's feelings count? Why don't you think women's privacy and dignity count?

Ereshkigal · 30/03/2018 23:15

As a rape survivor and a DV survivor who doesn't want to share those spaces with men, why do you think I should have to, Mrs McGarry?

Melamin · 30/03/2018 23:19

Nearly 8 1/2 K. Will look in the morning.

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