My 3 year olds language and behaviour is really concerning

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i’m honestly exhausted and don’t really know what i’m expecting people to say. ds is 3 and 8 months and he left his old nursery in July to start school nursery in September and since then everything seems to be getting worse. He’s hitting, pushing, scratching, throwing things, running away when he’s told no, taking his nappy off and coming out with things that make me just stare at him because i have no idea where he’s got them from. I’m dealing with it all day and by the evening i’m just completely done.

Before July he was difficult but difficult in a normal 3 year old way. He had tantrums, shouted, didn’t like sharing and could push if he was cross but he was also affectionate and funny and could play nicely. This has really only been like this since July so i don’t think it’s SEN because surely if it was something like that he would have always been like this? It feels like something has changed rather than this being how he’s always been. His old nursery never raised anything like this with me and he was there until July, so i keep thinking something must have changed.

He’s still in nappies. I tried potty training in August and it was a complete failure so i stopped because i couldn’t cope with another battle. Since July he’s started taking his nappy off constantly. He’ll pull it off and throw it across his bedroom, wee on the floor and then laugh when i ask him why he’s done it. He sometimes takes all his clothes off as well and runs around naked refusing to get dressed. At school nursery he’s pulled his trousers and nappy down during free play and apparently tried to get another child to take theirs off too. He thinks it’s hilarious when i tell him to stop and doesn’t seem embarrassed at all.

The things he says are getting worse too. He says “i’m gonna kill you”, “i hate you”, “you’re dead”, “shut up you stupid bitch”, “fuck off you idiot” and “you fucking bastard”. He’ll say “you’re a fucking dickhead” if i take something away and “what the fuck are you doing” if i tell him to stop something. He doesn’t even say them properly sometimes, it’s more like he’s repeating phrases he’s heard without knowing what half of them mean. I don’t use this language at all, let alone around him. I don’t swear at him or talk about adult things around him so i genuinely don’t know where he’s getting it from.

Sometimes he’ll just repeat a phrase over and over even though he clearly doesn’t understand it. I’ve asked him what “i’m gonna kill you” means and he just says “kill you” back and laughs. He has apparently said to a nursery child “fuck off you little shit” because they wouldn’t give him a toy. Another time he told a member of staff “i’m going to fucking smash your face in”. I honestly don’t know where a 3 year old even learns to put words together like that. If i ask him where he heard something he either says “nursery” or starts laughing and changes the subject.

His behaviour generally is awful at the moment. He’ll throw his food on the floor, tip drinks over deliberately, spit, scream, kick doors, throw toys at the wall and hit me when i try to stop him. He has started biting himself when he’s angry and banging his head against the sofa. If i tell him no he’ll sometimes run into another room and start pulling things off shelves. He can be playing perfectly happily and then suddenly hit dd because she touched something he wanted. He doesn’t seem to think about what he’s doing at all until afterwards and sometimes he just laughs when i’ve told him someone is hurt. He’ll also deliberately do things i’ve just told him not to do and then watch my face to see what i do.

dd is 1 and 2 months and i’m finding that the hardest part. He can be lovely with her and then suddenly push her over, grab her arm, pull toys away from her or shout right in her face. Once he pushed her backwards and she hit her head on the floor and another time he put a cushion over her while she was lying down. I pulled it away straight away and she was fine but it scared me. He has also thrown toys at her, kicked her toys into her and once squeezed her face when she was crying. I don’t think he was trying to seriously hurt her but i can’t take the risk so i don’t leave them alone together anymore. I’m constantly watching him when he’s near her and it’s exhausting.

Nursery are seeing the same sort of thing. He’s hitting and pushing other children, scratching, grabbing toys, throwing toys at people and running away from staff. He’s apparently knocked a child over deliberately and scratched another child. He refuses to sit down when asked, shouts over adults, climbs on furniture, empties boxes of toys onto the floor and sometimes just runs around the room screaming. They’ve told me he’s had to be taken away from other children because he was trying to hit them. He’s also apparently told another child “i’m going to fucking kill you” which obviously made me feel even worse. They’ve now asked me to come in and talk about it because they’re concerned about how much it’s happening.

I honestly don’t know what to do anymore. I feel like i’m saying “don’t hit”, “don’t throw”, “get dressed”, “leave her alone”, “use nice words”, “don’t take your nappy off” about a hundred times a day and none of it is sinking in. I’m not saying he’s a horrible child because he isn’t. He’s my little boy and i love him, but i’m finding his behaviour really difficult to cope with now and i’m worried about what happens if he carries on like this at nursery.

I haven’t spoken to the GP yet because i don’t even know what i’d say without sounding ridiculous. I keep thinking maybe i’m making a big thing out of normal toddler behaviour but then nursery tell me he’s hurt another child and i think no, this isn’t normal for him. It’s only really been this way since July, when he left his old nursery, and that’s why i don’t think it’s something he’s always had. I just don’t know what i’m supposed to do with him.

Nursery want to meet me tomorrow and i’m dreading it because i don’t know what they’re going to say or what i’m supposed to ask them for. Do i ask for an urgent referral somewhere? I don’t even know where i’d be referred to or whether they’d just laugh at me because he’s three. Do i ask the GP, nursery SENCO or someone else? I don’t want him being labelled as the naughty child when he’s only just started but i also can’t keep pretending everything is fine when he’s hurting dd, hurting other children and saying things like “i’m gonna fucking kill you” all day. Has anyone had a child suddenly change like this around 3/4? I’m so tired and honestly don’t know what to do next and I’m worried they’ll refer to social services if this carries on because it is concerning

I see some people have mentioned Echolalia. I wondered this as well. Some children who use echolalia will only hear a phrase once but remember it as the full phrase and sort of fixate on it and repeat it verbatim. Although he has quite a range of these phrases, which does make me think he's being exposed to a repeated source of this kind of language. You might never find out what the source is but it is highly likely that there is one. I suppose you could try asking him "Who says that? Who says gonna kill you? / Who says fuck off?" (IME "who says" is more likely to be understood by a 3yo than "where have you heard XYZ")

If you're willing to bring it up at a calm time, you might get a better result esp if you can make it a sort of silly game like "Who says fuck off? Does cow say fuck off? Noooo, cow says mooooo. Does baby sister say that? Nooooo." But I understand if you are reluctant to introduce the language when he is calmer. Just IME of children who get into an aggressive/overwhelmed spiral you will not get anything sensible out of them when they are wound up.

It's not unusual as well that young children can pick up that a word or phrase has extra "power" in that it gets a shocked, angry or frightened response from others. So while it's highly unlikely that a 3yo is using these phrases with the full intent an adult would have behind them, it could be that they feel more interesting or powerful to him because of the response they provoke. And he could also be hearing them in the context of some quite severe frustration or anger, so he could be learning an association between this phrasing and frustration/anger and trying to express this.

Does he otherwise speak normally, or does he always tend to speak in chunks of phrasing?

I would definitely be going to the GP or health visitor and explain -

My child has had a sudden change in behaviour since July.

Before July, he had normal toddler tantrums, difficulty with sharing, sometimes easily frustrated etc (to explain you don't expect unreasonably perfect levels of behaviour)

Since July, he has become extremely agressive and defiant, suddenly started taking clothes and nappy off, I thought perhaps he was ready to potty train, but this has also proved very difficult with no progress, his language is suddenly very extreme, with lots of swearing and violent threats, and I don't know where this could have come from, the only people at home are me and baby sister, I do not watch adult TV and he does not have access to Youtube etc. I am separated from his dad but he does not have much contact.

The aggressive behaviour and language are also noticed by nursery.

I am finding that he needs constant supervision with his sister because I am concerned he may seriously hurt her. This is also causing problems at nursery, where he is not always safe with other children.

I am extremely concerned, this is not normal for him.

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Try not to stress about the meeting, remember nursery are on your side, they want the same thing as you do - they want him to do well and they want the best for him. The best thing you can do is share your observations - that his feels as though it has all started since the summer, perhaps give some comparisons of what his behaviour was like previously. Explain you have been using naughty step at home, although it is not helping (it's useful to them to see that you are trying to address the behaviour). Share that you are also extremely concerned by the behaviour, that you do not use this language at home and do not know where he may have been exposed to it, that you are worried for the safety of your other child, that you do not know where to look for support with this extremely challenging behaviour.

If it does end up getting referred to social services (which I find very, very unlikely at this stage) this is always first and foremost for support, not judgement. Again, social workers do not want to work against you, they want the same thing as you which is to ensure that your child is safe and his wellbeing is protected.

Neuro diversity. Either ADHD or autism or both

Or a confused, over stimulated child, who will change very quickly.

There was a boy like this in my DS class. Mum and dad were split up. Dad was teaching him bad language for fun and to pee mum off.

Before making a judgement on my home life, read my comment. I said that my son has come out with these phrases in the past. All learnt from 3 children and nursery/school.

And just for clarity, I don’t actually swear around my children, so maybe you should reflect on your own ‘colourful home life’ if you are the reason your kids are hearing swear words. Whether they repeat them or not, doesn’t mean your kids should have to sit around hearing your potty mouth and I can almost guarantee that they will be saying them whilst they are at school away from you. It’s probably kids like your little cherubs that are teaching the OPs child all these awful phrases!

I haven’t read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been suggested - does his bedroom wall back on to a neighbour? Is he hearing next door saying these phrases? Especially in summer if the windows are open.

IF the school recommends getting in outside help for your son, let them. IT will never harm a normal child but can make a difference for any ND child or child who may have other kinds of developmental delays or lags.

My eldest was not as sparky of outright defiant and he has a severe communication disorder and was rated as level 3 autism (now level 2 thanks to intensive SALT and special school input) Some of what you describe remind me of his younger brother (AuDHD)but the defiance and swearing is way off the chart. It MIGHT indicate the start of Oppositional defiant disorder which some kids have from the ND genetic selection box. The impulsivity alone could indicate a check for possible ADHD over time is warranted. ADHD and ODD are one hell of a parenting mix and I do hope it’s one you’re not starting to face. I can recommend the book ‘The explosive Child’ as it contains some sane parenting advice on how to use positive parenting stratergies for children with low impulse control who react to parents in an explosive and often defiant manner and whose parents need Kevlar gauntlets to manage. Mostly it’s about noticing the good and picking one single battle at a time and concentrating solely on that.

Truly hope the meeting offers some helpful proposals to help you and To help your son and the staff who deal with him.

😂

It’s either screen, nursery, dad or other carers, maybe on the bus too.

My nephew who’s 3 this month would never dream of saying words like this but the most he’s allowed to watch is Cars or Thomas Tank Engine.

My older nephew (8) did go through a stage when he was 5/6 of saying nasty things re dying etc and we think it was down to him wanting more time with his mum, so she now when home from work at night reads a story or takes him out by himself on day trips. Now that language has stopped. He was never into swearing though.

I would be incredibly disturbed by this. Your child is disturbed and confused.

In terms of DC picking up language - my DS2 aged 6 was getting into trouble for using inappropriate language at his Kindergarten. In Germany Kindergarten is a sort of early childhood education, a mixture of nursery and preschool but goes up to age 6 or 7. The phrases he was using which were inappropriate were in German, the community language.

We are an English speaking household, 100%. He could not have learnt the phrases at home - I didn't even know them! He does have a teenage-aged brother, so the staff had wondered whether perhaps he looked up to the older brother and spent time around him and had heard the language this way, but actually they barely interact.

DH, once clued in to what the phrases were, clocked that actually, DS was hearing it from other 6yos who were generally well-behaved, but who knew this language and would secretly use it out of earshot of adults. They were socially aware enough to hide the bad language, because they were well aware it was taboo. DS did not pick up on this, which we don't know if it's because it's not his native language, or whether it's because he doesn't pick up on social cues like this generally (diagnosed ADHD, suspected ASD). So he would just use the language wherever, which I suspect partly was ignorance and partly because he enjoyed the reactions it would get. Then there was also a bit of a feedback loop where the other children (who did know to hide the bad words) were astonished that DS was "brave" enough to use them wherever and would sort of feed them to him deliberately because they were intrigued/amused/impressed. But again the teachers were largely unaware of this, because it was mostly happening at times of the day where the children were less closely supervised e.g. when they were at the opposite end of the playground, out of earshot.

I realise this is quite a different situation to a UK based nursery where the children will be maximum 4 years old, and probably won't have much ability to hide inappropriate language from adults, but it is one example where the assumption was a child was getting language from home, and it turned out to be from peers - who themselves, had most likely heard it from older siblings, and peers who were generally thought of as well-behaved, respectful and who did not use bad language within adult hearing.

My boy is the same age with similar struggles. He’s just been diagnosed as autistic. If I were you I’d ask for him to be assessed.

The main difference between our situations is the language. My DS struggles with his speech. If he ever came out with anything like swear words it would have to be nursery. I know what he watches on TV, I’m with him outside when the neighbours are talking or at the playground and the only place he isn't with me is nursery. It’s a big concern.

FYI we had to get a few cameras installed around the house to keep younger DD safe from him. When she was a baby I could keep her with me but as the kids got older there were times where they had to be on their own for a bit. It’s peace of mind that I can make a sandwich in the kitchen whilst watching them in the next room.

Many years ago my mum ran a playgroup. There was a mum who came in with a black eye once. Her twin boys were heard to shout he just called me a fucking bitch when running around together ! It was very obvious what was happening at home. It could well me another child influencing your child’s language.

There's a surprising number of disgaceful nasty men out there who will gladly hurt and abuse their own children as some kind of 'punishment' of their ex.

How is your child still in nappies and in a school nursery?

For my daughter during her open day for a school nursery we were told that all children had to be potty trained and able to use the loo by themselves.

Regarding the behaviour problems, I am sorry I hope you manage it x

I am so sorry that you are going through this. However, I believe you are not being honest with yourself. I can't imagine a situation where a child would learn that vocabulary unless they are exposed to it through hearing it at home or through the television, in which case, inappropriate shows are being watched in his presence.

As PP have said, he's heard these sentences somewhere.

Does anyone else care for him? Grandparents, family, babysitters.

Does he spend time alone in the garden where he might be hearing neighbours and you're unaware?

Does he play at e.g. the park or softplay with random kids and you can't hear what's going on?

He's being exposed to this somewhere, overhearing it is bad enough but potentially someone is saying this directly to him which is horrific. When he's said he heard it 'at nursery' do you ask who said it?

You sound quite passive about it, I don't quite get it. If my 3yo had started saying she was going to smash my fucking face in I'd have torn the world apart to find out who had said that to her! Do you live in an area / grew up where this sort of language is commonplace and you're sort of immune to it?

Thanks for your replies everyone

Sometimes the things he says do seem to be in context but other times they seem random but he does seem to be angry a lot which is worrying me but he never used to be like this

He did have tantrums but it wasn’t everyday and they weren’t as bad as this, he went through a biting phase but he stopped. The school nursery is different as in it’s now school uniform (polo shirt, jumper, joggers and trainers) and probably more educational i know they watch things related to phonics whereas the previous nursery was more about play

His dad does play games but he only has ds for a day, never overnight etc so surely hed be able to wait instead of playing the games when only having ds for a few hours as it was just an afternoon for example and not regularly but i dont know because he doesn’t reply to any messages

Ive tried rewards charts but he got a hold of it and ripped it up (not even when angry he just sat there ripping it into tiny pieces)

His sleep is okay although he’s always fell asleep quite late for a toddler at 8pm but then wakes up at 830/9 which is fine for now as he doesnt start nursery until 12:30 but i know next year with school it’ll be difficult

He just flicks from being calm and happy to being extremely angry like this morning he was calm then he had his lunch and played for a bit on the floor and for no reason he got up and grabbed the dog’s ear, the dog wasn’t anywhere near him and when i said it was naughty he spat and hit me and then when we were waiting for the bus he kept saying he wanted a biscuit from greggs (he knows a greggs is near where we get the bus) and when i said no he grabbed dds dummy out her mouth and threw it into the road and told me to fuck off but then when we had got to nursery he was calm again

Something’s going on at Dad’s house.

And when driving.

OP, so sorry you are contending with this. I work with young children and I would be very concerned about the language your son is using. It is all very violent and he appears to be applying it in context. This has been picked up from an adult not another child, in my opinion.

I have worked with many children who have been exposed to this sort of language outside school and have used it at staff repeatedly but it hasn't transferred to another pupil. The last time swearing like this was a surprise to a parent, the child was watching you tube and they weren't monitoring the suitability. You say this isn't on your watch but someone somewhere has exposed him to this on a fairly regular basis for his repertoire to develop. Video gaming is a definite possibility, and he doesn't have had to be present in the room, just in earshot.

Please tell the school all of this and ask for their help. I would accept referrals to everywhere in your position. Some of his language will definitely trigger safeguarding concerns, together with trying to get other children to remove nappies/underwear. See this as an opportunity to keep him safe and work with it.

I think you can only focus on one thing at a time and for me, it would be the physical threat to your other child. Stay very calm, don't let him hurt her and redirect his attention. Potty training can wait a while. When he uses inappropriate language, calmly say you don't use those words. Did he mean 'no thank you?' A big reaction to swearing gets more swearing and this isn't his fault. He should, as a 3 year old, be able to use all the words in his vocabulary to communicate his needs.

He does sound very angry. Is he? Can you talk to him about that feeling? Everyone feels angry but hurting other people isn't okay. Give him some other things he can do when he is feeling like that. Make a huge and dramatic effort to spot him being good and tell him he is kind and lovely at every possible moment. This is not the behaviour of a child who is feeling good about things or himself. The calmer and more positive you can stay when gently correcting him, the better. He has absolutely no idea what he is saying and doing.

I fully imagine your meeting with nursery will provide some next steps. What is his language development like apart from the swearing? Can he get his point across with ease?

What did you do when he grabbed and threw your daughter’s dummy and told you to fuck off? If my child had done that it would have been a severe telling off, carrying home surfboard style under the arm if necessary and an age appropriate consequence. It sounds like he’s done this and you’ve just carried on with your day? What will be his consequence for doing this?
Unless you’re prepared to actually act when he behaves so badly I’m not sure what will actually change? It might disrupt your day and you might have to change plans but you need a behaviour plan to address this.

I was thinking exactly this especially the repeat phrases

yes, seriously. Are you that naive?

He isnt inventing this language.
Hes hearing it.
And hes hearing in in the form he's repeating it. Threats.
He is most certainly not being threatened in nursery so if he truly isnt hearing it in your home then it can only be the one other place He goes without you.

You need to take more seriously what people are saying, it’s either dad or nursery. How is it relevant that your son doesn’t stay overnight? You don’t even know if he plays games in his presence you just hope he doesn’t?

can you hide a recording device next time in your son’s items or toy or clothing to understand what goes on there?

Children that age don't need to hear that language a lot necessarily to pick up on it. My son is just turning three and if we slipped up and swore, he'd definitely copy it - especially if he realised it had a big impact. E.g. got him a lot of attention, positive or negative.

The real red flag is the number of different phrases and knowing how to use them. That's either from another nursery child who swears a LOT (they do exist sadly) or more likely an adult.

I'm guessing his younger sister started nursery in July too maybe? Could the switch from home life being you at home on mat leave to a double drop be contributing to it? Is there anything else around your routine change that might be causing him to kick out?