My 3 year olds language and behaviour is really concerning

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i’m honestly exhausted and don’t really know what i’m expecting people to say. ds is 3 and 8 months and he left his old nursery in July to start school nursery in September and since then everything seems to be getting worse. He’s hitting, pushing, scratching, throwing things, running away when he’s told no, taking his nappy off and coming out with things that make me just stare at him because i have no idea where he’s got them from. I’m dealing with it all day and by the evening i’m just completely done.

Before July he was difficult but difficult in a normal 3 year old way. He had tantrums, shouted, didn’t like sharing and could push if he was cross but he was also affectionate and funny and could play nicely. This has really only been like this since July so i don’t think it’s SEN because surely if it was something like that he would have always been like this? It feels like something has changed rather than this being how he’s always been. His old nursery never raised anything like this with me and he was there until July, so i keep thinking something must have changed.

He’s still in nappies. I tried potty training in August and it was a complete failure so i stopped because i couldn’t cope with another battle. Since July he’s started taking his nappy off constantly. He’ll pull it off and throw it across his bedroom, wee on the floor and then laugh when i ask him why he’s done it. He sometimes takes all his clothes off as well and runs around naked refusing to get dressed. At school nursery he’s pulled his trousers and nappy down during free play and apparently tried to get another child to take theirs off too. He thinks it’s hilarious when i tell him to stop and doesn’t seem embarrassed at all.

The things he says are getting worse too. He says “i’m gonna kill you”, “i hate you”, “you’re dead”, “shut up you stupid bitch”, “fuck off you idiot” and “you fucking bastard”. He’ll say “you’re a fucking dickhead” if i take something away and “what the fuck are you doing” if i tell him to stop something. He doesn’t even say them properly sometimes, it’s more like he’s repeating phrases he’s heard without knowing what half of them mean. I don’t use this language at all, let alone around him. I don’t swear at him or talk about adult things around him so i genuinely don’t know where he’s getting it from.

Sometimes he’ll just repeat a phrase over and over even though he clearly doesn’t understand it. I’ve asked him what “i’m gonna kill you” means and he just says “kill you” back and laughs. He has apparently said to a nursery child “fuck off you little shit” because they wouldn’t give him a toy. Another time he told a member of staff “i’m going to fucking smash your face in”. I honestly don’t know where a 3 year old even learns to put words together like that. If i ask him where he heard something he either says “nursery” or starts laughing and changes the subject.

His behaviour generally is awful at the moment. He’ll throw his food on the floor, tip drinks over deliberately, spit, scream, kick doors, throw toys at the wall and hit me when i try to stop him. He has started biting himself when he’s angry and banging his head against the sofa. If i tell him no he’ll sometimes run into another room and start pulling things off shelves. He can be playing perfectly happily and then suddenly hit dd because she touched something he wanted. He doesn’t seem to think about what he’s doing at all until afterwards and sometimes he just laughs when i’ve told him someone is hurt. He’ll also deliberately do things i’ve just told him not to do and then watch my face to see what i do.

dd is 1 and 2 months and i’m finding that the hardest part. He can be lovely with her and then suddenly push her over, grab her arm, pull toys away from her or shout right in her face. Once he pushed her backwards and she hit her head on the floor and another time he put a cushion over her while she was lying down. I pulled it away straight away and she was fine but it scared me. He has also thrown toys at her, kicked her toys into her and once squeezed her face when she was crying. I don’t think he was trying to seriously hurt her but i can’t take the risk so i don’t leave them alone together anymore. I’m constantly watching him when he’s near her and it’s exhausting.

Nursery are seeing the same sort of thing. He’s hitting and pushing other children, scratching, grabbing toys, throwing toys at people and running away from staff. He’s apparently knocked a child over deliberately and scratched another child. He refuses to sit down when asked, shouts over adults, climbs on furniture, empties boxes of toys onto the floor and sometimes just runs around the room screaming. They’ve told me he’s had to be taken away from other children because he was trying to hit them. He’s also apparently told another child “i’m going to fucking kill you” which obviously made me feel even worse. They’ve now asked me to come in and talk about it because they’re concerned about how much it’s happening.

I honestly don’t know what to do anymore. I feel like i’m saying “don’t hit”, “don’t throw”, “get dressed”, “leave her alone”, “use nice words”, “don’t take your nappy off” about a hundred times a day and none of it is sinking in. I’m not saying he’s a horrible child because he isn’t. He’s my little boy and i love him, but i’m finding his behaviour really difficult to cope with now and i’m worried about what happens if he carries on like this at nursery.

I haven’t spoken to the GP yet because i don’t even know what i’d say without sounding ridiculous. I keep thinking maybe i’m making a big thing out of normal toddler behaviour but then nursery tell me he’s hurt another child and i think no, this isn’t normal for him. It’s only really been this way since July, when he left his old nursery, and that’s why i don’t think it’s something he’s always had. I just don’t know what i’m supposed to do with him.

Nursery want to meet me tomorrow and i’m dreading it because i don’t know what they’re going to say or what i’m supposed to ask them for. Do i ask for an urgent referral somewhere? I don’t even know where i’d be referred to or whether they’d just laugh at me because he’s three. Do i ask the GP, nursery SENCO or someone else? I don’t want him being labelled as the naughty child when he’s only just started but i also can’t keep pretending everything is fine when he’s hurting dd, hurting other children and saying things like “i’m gonna fucking kill you” all day. Has anyone had a child suddenly change like this around 3/4? I’m so tired and honestly don’t know what to do next and I’m worried they’ll refer to social services if this carries on because it is concerning

If it isn't language he is hearing at home then he must be hearing it at nursery. It hasn't come from nowhere!

I do think you need to get some professional advice because the sudden change in behaviour is concerning, especially when he is hurting his little sister and other children.
But I also think you need to look at the boundaries at home. You say you’re telling him “don’t hit”, “don’t throw”, “get dressed” etc hundreds of times a day, but what actually happens when he ignores you? If you’re using a naughty step but he can simply get off it and carry on, then it isn’t really a consequence and he’s learning that he doesn’t actually have to do what you’ve asked.
At nearly 4 I’d also be speaking to nursery/your health visitor about the nappies and toilet training rather than just abandoning it after one difficult attempt. Taking his nappy off and weeing on the floor while watching for your reaction may be another area where the boundaries have become muddled.
None of that means he’s a naughty or horrible child, and I certainly wouldn’t assume all of this is caused by parenting. The fact it’s such a dramatic change since July absolutely warrants investigating. But I’d be doing both things at once — asking the SENCO/GP for help to work out what’s behind the change, while also putting very clear, calm and consistent boundaries in place at home. At the moment he sounds as though he’s completely running the show, and that isn’t good for him or the rest of the family.

I agree with comment up thread that he might be hearing this language if his Dad is a gamer and plays when he has him. People shout in their headphones not realizing how loud they are being being and the examples you've given are all very typical gaming 'banter'.

Neuro diversity. Either ADHD or autism or both.

(Sensory issues: poor interoception leading to potty training difficulties, taking clothes off
Echolalia possibly
Social issues sharing, not playing with other kids,
Impulsivity with the hitting, language.
Family history of neuro diversity (your dyslexia))

Ask about a referral. It's good that nursery are seeing the behaviour. Get them to put it in writing. In detail.

He'll have picked up the language from the bus mainly. Sounds like there is some echolalia in there too.

Do a parenting course. They like to send you on them before referral. You can then say you use this or that strategy and it doesn't work.

Good luck.

I think there are several issues here.
The first is where he is hearing that language?
Then the question is why is he hearing that language? If it is coming from his dad or an adult at nursery then there is a possibility that they are saying it to him and his behavior is likely as a result of the abuse he is experiencing. If on the other hand he is just overhearing that language I would suspect there is SEN at play. I don't think it would be normal for a child of nearly 4 to repeat that kind of language as frequently as you say with the associated behaviours unless they are either traumatized or have SEN.

Yes I think he could.
you think a nursery worker is never ever alone with the children? A worker maybe SHOULDN’T be alone but you are 100% sure

Seriously?

He'll have picked up the language from the bus mainly
What?? Of course he won’t! Apart from the fact that it would be very unusual to hear that stuff on public transport; presumably op would have heard it herself and been able to surmise the source.

I’m not sure how much of a help this will be but we adopted our DS when he was 3 and he was still in nappies so potty training was later than usual.
He genuinely didn’t care if he went on the floor so having him naked (like the usual advice) just didn’t work. Only thing that did was essentially clearing up mess with no comment or fuss but making a massive song and dance (and giving a reward) for going on the potty. And having several potties dotted around so there was always one nearby.

With the language, of course ideally you’d know where it came from but if he’s watching you for a reaction, make sure your face is neutral while you tell him they’re not words we say - but follow up with ‘we say “I’m angry/sad/frustrated” so he knows both what not to do but also what is allowed.

The behaviour sounds very like he is very pent up. Does he get a chance to burn off energy (not easy when you have another LO)? I know for DS he’s generally a lot easier if he’s been able to run around or ride his scooter outside.

I imagine nursery will be keen to ensure he’s not modelling language and behaviour present at home (part of their safeguarding role) but could also help with strategies. If they remove him when he’s being aggressive, ask where they take him, what they say, what they get him to do and how long before they let him back in. If that’s workable for you, do it at home too so it’s all consistent.

I think this is good advice. Hope your meeting with the school goes well and that they can put in a referral for you and give you advice. Also speak to health visitor if you can access one and your GP. Sounds like you could do with support as to how to manage this best. Good luck.

You wrote to the BBC about foul language on Eastenders? What was the language? Also the last part of your first paragraph is patronising.

OP, surely it has to be his father who is abusing him by exposing him to this horrible stuff. Either losing his temper around DS, or leaving him with bad-tempered people (ex’s parents or siblings?), or watching violence on television or online.

I know there are some bad nursery workers, and paedophiles actively seek employment with access to children. But the violent language and threats don’t sound likely in a nursery. I’m not an expert, but it just sounds more like some nasty thug in his own home or among other equally rough people.

I do hope you can get him away from whoever is abusing him.

Hi Op, I’ve been through a really similar tough journey with my DS. It started with biting age 2 and continued with patches of really challenging violent behaviour to both children and staff at nursery until he recently started school. We had bad behaviour at home to his younger sibling and I was the same that I couldn’t leave them together. He was really similar in repeating inappropriate phrases including about killing. In my experience they were phrases he would have overheard once on TV or from nursery staff or in the playground from kids with older siblings, but then once he realised he got a reaction from them, it was like constant dopamine seeking behaviour when he’d say them over and over again. We had less swearing but more inappropriate touching. As soon as he knew it was inappropriate to touch bottoms, he would constantly do it. It was so mortifying to know he was doing this to staff and children. I had some nursery staff blame our parenting and lifestyle which was devastating. However other nursery staff were amazing, seeking to understand how his brain worked and how they could help him. I will suggest things which could help although a big part of me feels that the parts of his brain for impulse control and emphathy just weren’t yet “turned on” with him and it’s taken time for those parts of his brain to develop. It feels better to do something rather than nothing though so things that may help… ask nursery staff to keep him as engaged as possible so he can’t get bored, send him on little missions etc, ask them to introduce as much structure as they can in the day. Buy and read books to him on emotions, anger, empathy. Try magnesium tablets in the morning. Put all the incident reports through AI to see if it can highlight patterns you can’t see, then ask the nursery to focus on these times / situations in the day. Engage as much as you can with all the nursery meetings and any other support you can get from health visitors or anyone else. It will feel hard. Your son is a slow developer with impulse control and empathy but I bet there are other things that he’s brilliant at. Keep building him up with those things and notice all his good behaviour. For what it’s worth I fully believe it’s possible for a child of that age to do and say those things whilst coming from a kind, loving home. We likely have high functioning ADHD on both sides of our family but I’ve been told that won’t be considered until age 7+. Not sure if you’ll want to hear this just now but all of nursery was hard however school has been much better. Good luck!

Wow, this is very concerning, as you know. The constantly taking his nappy off and encouraging others to do the same is a big red flag imo.

Does nobody else look after him? Are you dating? Not his grandparents at all?

He is obviously getting this language and behaviour from someone... If it is not you then it must be someone/somewhere else. Can you take him out of the nursery as the first port of call and try his old one or a new one to see if that changes his behaviour at all?

Please have a look at pathological Demand Avoidance, it is a set of traits that can be seen in some people who are autistic.

This screams PDA to me, I'm mum of PDA children so do have an insight into this.

If may not have been apparent at an earlier age because when children are smaller, life comes with fewer demands and expectations.

The phrases he's shouting could even just be things he's heard anywhere out in
public. If he has PDA he's shouting these things because he's dysregulated and feels like his nervous system is under attack.

It's really important to have a read up, start with the PDA society website, have a look for PDA support groups on Facebook too.

There are specific parenting strategies for children with PDA. They don't respond to normal punishments and rewards so it's an idea to do your research on this, because this is where you can help your child to stay as regulated as possible.

I'd go out on a limb and say that lots of this behaviour will be linked to having to attend nursery/pre school. It's highly likely that if he does have PDA the environment comes with too many demands and will be extremely overstimulating for him. That's why you see the negative behaviour both at home and there, 70 percent of children with PDA are unable to attend school either regularly or at all.

It's vital that they get some help in place for you, he needs referrals for assessments for autism/ADHD at the very least, for sure. If they need to refer to SS for support then that's what they need to do, take anything they can because it sounds like you need the support. It can take years to get an assessment, you could ask about right to choose. If he needs support in that environment then it would be good to ask about EHCPs because he will likely need a special school if he can't cope in a mainstream environment and it can take years of paperwork and appeals in some areas to get one. Any interventions you get, refer alla meetings etc will all go towards building evidence to support your son. Get everything in writing and start keeping records.

Please don't think he's having tantrums, he's having meltdowns. At these times he needs support and love which can feel really hard when he's doing and saying such horrible things but if it's PDA then he will be struggling to control what he's going especially being so young

Sending love as u know how hard this can be. Getting some PDA friendly strategies in place is a good place to start.

A stressful situation like changing nursery could have brought up acting out and using language he has heard in the past from his dad or other carer. Even if they may not talk before age 2, they certainly listen and they remember.

Not to mention the nursery workers in the case of Geniveve the baby who died strapped to a beanbag - they were caught on CCTV using language like this towards preverbal children and some of those children will have been older and been able to remember or repeat it. The recordings were only accessed because of the investigation. They might have been using the same kind of language unchecked for years.

Not sure why so many people are convinced that he can't possibly have heard this language at nursery... One of the older girls at ours called my then 3 year old a cunt at nursery which he then loudly asked about. He's also said a few things (nothing like as extreme as this) which we are confident has come from others at nursery.

Absolutely this, similar journey with absolutely shocking behaviours- not so extreme with the language but theirs was coming for books things that seemed entirely innocent eg a sleepy truck in a book asking another to “pipe down” so they could sleep did not go down well at nursery when he used it on the staff and told them to “pipe down” -got a note home about that one! However the swearing is concerning as they will have picked it up from somewhere but from my personal experience certain things stick after hearing it once or twice.

There are neurodivergent profiles out there that you wouldn’t think of as “this might be happening for my child” but they do exist and you might want to look into. Specifically Autism with a PDA profile. This can make potty training a lot hard slog as they resist all demands, managing behaviours in any traditional way massively backfires and escalates the problems. They can be managed and have to be but require a different approach and even if your child isn’t neurodivergent it might work for them anyway.

As a society we have very stereotypical ideas about what autistic children should be like eg restricted diet, want to spend time on their own, don’t like leaving the house, can’t handle the changes of Christmas, rigid routine and only going to familiar places but PDA children enjoy novelty and often very social and very verbal and the opposite of what you might think autism looks like. Try to keep an open mind it could just be a tricky phase or might be something else finding the right strategies either way will help

I don’t use foul language around my children, never have and the things my 5 year old has come out with over the years is abhorrent. That was all learnt from children at nursery and now school. Unfortunately some parents really don’t care and you will often find it’s one child that’s been exposed to this kind of language in day to day life and they will keep coming out with it in a nursery/school setting and other kids pick up on it. They have no idea what they are saying, just repeating what they have heard. So yes, it is completely possible that the OPs child has picked up all that awful language from a kid at school.

The language means there has to be something going on. He’s learning it from somewhere and I’d be very concerned as to where. That’s abusive language and a lot of different variations so not just like he heard it once on passing someone saying it. Is anyone else ever alone with him? If not I’d be removing him from the nursery. Have you asked the nursery about it and said he’s saying a lot of concerning phrases that you don’t know where he’s getting it from?

Yes it can happen. My 5 year old has said also everyone of these phrases, and he certainly has never heard it at home. It’s all from 3 children he attended nursery/school with.

But you know where it has come from, OP has no idea and nursery are clearly concerned. If his nursery knew he had picked it up from another child who uses that language it seems less likely they’d then be making a safeguarding referral.

Oh dear. Rough school I guess.

If this were the case, OP and the nursery would be well aware of where it’s coming from, however. They would already be dealing with little Johnny and his swearing and social work involvement with his family. They wouldn’t be under any illusions as to where the OP’s son has picked it up from.

Instead it’s the OP being called in for a meeting 🤔

I’m very shocked your children say every one of these phrases. The only place my child hears swearing is from me and he never repeats it. He certainly has never said “I’m going to smash your fucking face in.”

Your home life sounds… colourful.

Not at all. My nursery wouldn’t admit it was a child in their care saying the words. It was only after I asked my son where he heard it from, I found out the name. Then other parents who I was friendly with mentioned the same thing. It was only after having a meeting with the nursery manager and room lead, and remaining really firm that these two children were a problem, they admitted it. It would never have come out of their mouths otherwise.