What should I do about my friend's 3 year old son who wrecks my house?

[mummyluvsyoo]

Help! My DS is 3.

I have a friend who has a son also aged 3. The boy doesn't speak - although he does understand language. His social behaviour is inappropriate for his age (no eye contact, no imaginative play, no parralel or co-operative play, no interest in social interaction) and he is now being assessed although they have been given a provisional diagnosis of high functioning autism.

My problem is that my friend does not attempt to impose even the simplest boundaries on his behaviour - so when he comes to the house he literally runs around, jumps on the sofas and wrecks everything in sight. If we ask him to stop he just ignores us. If my DS behaved in this way I would go and remove him from the situation - but my friend doesn't do this. On one occasion when he was in DS's room he threw all his toys off the shelves and would not share them with DS. My friend did not really try and stop him from doing this, even though I asked her to. I have not let him go upstairs since. She avoids any situation where her DS will not get his own way. On the occasions when she has got him to sit down, for example, doing colouring he grabs all the crayons and when my DS tries to share them he refuses - but my friend then tells MY(!) DS to let HER boy have the crayons - which is unfair. She does the same thing when we go to their house. So it ends up that my DS feels he has been naughty when he has not.

I thought the solution would be to just not meet at home and be in open places. However this boy is just like other 3 year olds in terms of physical development. Because he doesn't interact with DS and is in his own world I worry that my DS might get hurt, especially on climbing frames, etc. I can't even let this boy in the garden because he runs in places that he shouldn't. His behaviour in restaurants etc is so inappropriate that the whole event is just too stressful and I am left wondering why I bothered. I am also worried that DS will be influenced by this behaviour.

I am finding the whole thing very frustrating. My DS is not getting the benefit of a "normal" social interaction.
I don't want to ostracize my friend during what must be a very difficult time for her. I would like the boys to continue to play together but only if she can take steps to impose some boundaries on his behaviour. However I think that she just thinks that I am being over-precious about my house. I admit that I am tidy and organised - but I don't have a problem with children's mess - it's the destructive behaviour that I object to with my friend's son. My DS's other little friends make one helluva mess but they are never destructive in this way.

My DS likes him coming round but doesn't like when he is "naughty" as he puts it. Similarly the boy seems to like coming to our house - but unfortunately treats it like a barn! I get upset when my DS gets treated unfairly by my friend, especially in his own house, with his own toys!

It is not that I am discriminating against the boy - it's just that if my friend doesn't even try and control him then he will never learn how to behave. I don't feel this is a problem to do with his suspected autism - I would be writing this about any child who behaved in this way in my house.

So what should I do. My friend is so keen that the boys remain friends - but after last week - I don't know what to do - being with them is not an enjoyable experience, for me, my DS or my DH who has to scrape me off the floor and give me intravenous wine after one of their visits

And I completely disagree that the child should be described as "bossy" or some other such thing. How on earth does that help to teach anyone about disability?

If the child has a provisional dx of ASD then he has it imo. Just my opinion from knowing how reluctant paediatricians are to dx.

Oh, I'm losing rrack of this thread but MLY, our dfs behaves very differently at our house to his own. Have to do preschool run now but will pop back on later and read it all properly.

Do you know something, and I say this cautiously, I would not feel anything bad about someone who considered this kind of situation and realised that they didn't actually have the ability / space / time to be supportive of this family.

I appreciate the guilt feeling .. I have been there with a friend's children who I was simply unable to accomodate and so had to back away ... I really do understand .. and it easy for those who are commenting upon the situation to think 'oh you should do this' because they don't actually have to put the physical and mental effort in to be involved .. we all have the perception that it is believed it would be the right thing to do .. well, honestly .. not necessarily!

But there is NOBODY saying that you HAVE to remain as the support structure here.

Honestly and truly it can be a huge burden .. I do have a friend who I see rather regularly who has a child with fairly severe SN ... it can be wearing, it can be difficult especially when accomodating / considering your own children.

I do think that only you can make the decision though .. and if you make the decision to stay in their lives you have to be really ready for the ups / downs and everything else that might ensue.

There is a lot to think about .. do not make the decision glibly because you feel its what you should do .. I am sure parents of children with SN that result in behavioural difficulties may well back me up in this .. there would be no judgement of the decision to 'back away' .. it is not a 'wrong thing' .. it just needs to be considered.

Olihan, thanks for responding so rationally and not jumping!

As I said I do accept that it may have no effect. However you are still assuming that he has asd and that she has tried. I agree it does sound as if he has and I fully accept I haven't been there myself. But we don't know the full story.

And I still maintain that a dx of ASD does not mean rules and discipline can never work. They can and do help some people with ASD. My BIL (I'll try to be brief) has a mother who has a very unstructured, haphazard and random approach and a father who is very controlled and sets lots of rules eg rigidly fixed mealtimes. When BIL is with his mother he panicks and becomes uncontrollably difficult; when he's with his father he visibly relaxes and finds things much easier. We simply don't know at this stage if this boy could respond well.

I also do think the friend could reconsider her responses in terms of the way she is making the OP's DS feel. If she's too far gone into despair, fair enough - it's something the OP herself will have to help her DS with.

Olihan. Thank you for that - this is a very emotive subject isn't it?

When I try and explain to my DS I tend to use the word different or he doesn't understand - I try not to use loaded words like naughty or bad, or bossy when explaining my friend's DS's behaviour.

By the way as gess also said yesterday I think we can safely expect a diagnosis of ASD for this child as they would not have given a provsional diagnosis otherwise.

My DS has other children (girls) his age who he plays with and goes to nursery two and a half days a week.

Re "bossy" it may not be the ideal word but it's better than "naughty". I'm trying to find something that the OP's 3yo DS can understand. I don't think he'll be able to understand the reality of ASD at his age; I may be wrong. Do suggest another form of words for the OP to use to help her son not to feel it's his fault.

what's wrong with 'he doesn't understand'

Sorry i should have wrote in quotes. I say to my son that "he is different" or "he doesn't understand". It is usually my DS who says to me "he's naughty isn't he" or he says to my friend "maybe you should take him home now" - which is my ground open up and swallow me moment (and unfortunately is exactly what I am thinking at the time)!

Well, he's a bright child so I guess he will understand. As I said I have a 3yr-old who understands quite complex things about other people including her sisters autism

Oh, I had a little chuckle at 'what I have done with my friend's DS is communicate to him non verbally that I want him to stop, by gently taking his hand and leading him away - or by picking him up and placing him somewhere else, or removing the object he is mishandling - usually for his own safety. That sometimes works, wither he goes off and does something elso but he often does go back and do the same thing again, so I then repeat that behaviour.' That's my weekend with dfs to a T .

Twig has made a really good point about not having to keep the friendship if you feel as if it's too much. At the moment you sound as though you really want to make the friendship work, which is great. BUT, being the only support to someone in your friend's situation is incredibly difficult. We went through a period with dfs and his family where we were all the support they had. They didn't have a social worker and no family or friends around who could offer any practical help. It was a big burden on us, and there were a few occasions where we just couldn't face having him, despite knowing how important the break was to his parents. The guilt is hard (I'm very easily guilt ridden!) but we had to prioritise ourselves sometimes.

Sorry, this is a bit garbled, I'm contending with ds1 and dd as I type!

I think your way of wexplaining it to your ds is the best option. My ds1 is 3 and doesn't understand why he can do something and it's naughty but dfs can do it and 'get away' with it. We use 'he doesn't undersatnd too', as there is no other accuarte phrase. TBH, autism is hard enough to understand as an adult, never mind as a 3yo!

Snowleopard, I think the major difference between the OP's friend's son and your BIL is that your BIL has Aspergers,(was it you who said that?) whereas the child here appears, from the OPs descriptions, on a more severe end of the spectrum. People with Aspergers tend to be more pliable and easy to 'handle', as they have more understanding of language, etc. I appreciate that there is no official dx yet but the boy sounds very similar to my dfs at that age, and there is no way you would say he is at the Aspergers end of the spectrum.

Have been thinking about the "bossy" thing. I think my feeling is that the 3yo NT child is experiencing the other boy's as behaviour as a variety of negative things - having his stuff broken, he toys taken etc. - and he's assessing him as "naughty". My instinct is to see it through his eyes and re-interpret that - but I think if you just say "he doesn't understand" you're not addressing the difficulties it poses for the NT child, or the negative experience it is for him. So I would actually say things like he is or can seem bossy, violent or noisy, because he can't help it and doesn't understand. It doesn't make sense to pretend these things aren't happening. Words like bossy and noisy are descriptive, they describe someone being controlling or making a noise, which is the reality. Then I'd explain that it's not naughty and that he can't help it. I think this would help the NT boy to see that people do understand how it is for him as well.

However I guess I think this way because I'm NT and have an NT child. But it's being able to share these different viewpoints that helps us all understand each other better I hope.

Electra I'd imagine your 3yo probably does have an advantage in understanding asd as she has more contact with it. It may be harder for some 3yos, even bright ones.

Olihan, the boy's provisional dx is high-functioning autism, and my BIL was non-verbal at 3, which is why I'm just thinking that keeping an open mind would be useful in this case. I'm not insisting he will necessarily be at the same point on the spectrum as my BIL.

I haven't been able to read all these posts but I would like to say that I think alot of responses have been unfair to the OP. I think she has a right not to let her house be wrecked and for naughty behaviour not to be 'reinforced' in her house in front of her son.

And I say this as a mother of an autistic son who would do all of the things that this suspected autistic child does.

I more than anyone knows how complex autism is and that the reasons autistic children behave in a certain way is governed by many different factors, the last of which, usually, is being naughty. HOWEVER it is still necessary to lay down guidelines to autistic kids! He must be told its naughty to jump on furniture and snatch crayons, or whatever it is he does. Otherwise the behaviour will continue to get out of hand, ESPECIALLY if he is rewarded for his bad behaviour (eg is given the crayons)

Of course this is easier said than done but I think the OPs main point is that nothing is being done. Of course the poor mother is probably at her wits end and enjoys coming round for a cup of tea and tries to relax. BUT for everyone's best interests, including the boy, he needs to learn right from wrong. He is going to have a hard enough time socially in his life so he needs to be TAUGHT.

This is an ongoing thing - we are still doing this with ds1 who is nearly 6, and yes, still has challenging behaviour, but I dread to think how he would be if we had let him do what he liked. He is gorgeous and happy and so much more relaxed because he knows social boundaries.

RnBee, this is what I was trying to say - less succinctly! - and though I'd imagine some will disagree with you, it's helpful to hear this from the parent of a child with asd.

RnBee I agree with you about not reinforcing behaviour and children with ASD requiring specific teaching but you and I have been lucky in that our children have had intensive ABA programmes. Without that I really doubt my dd would do anything we ask her.

What I mean is, if the child doesn't yet have good enough receptive language to learn right from wrong there isn't going to be much progress in setting boundaries yet. We can't assume the child is HF for the purpose of the thread. I was also told that my dd was HF at 3 - she had no language at all and didn't even respond to her name but they decided that because she could do an inset puzzle(!)

Absolutely Electra (not been around for a while, were you previously someone else?). ABA has certainly helped with this. But tbh I think a large reason for this is because it taught me never to let ds1 get away with anything 'naughty'.

But I do know children who have not had any ABA who have parents adopting these strategies (which although hard to actually do, are pretty common sense) eg, not rewarding bad behaviour/reinforing good behaviour. And these kids have learnt these complex social boundaries, even though they are autistic.

Snowleopard, I absolutely understand what you are saying. I am experiencing a similar problem with a child at my local park. He is about 5 and has Down's syndrome and is left to wander the playground on his own (while his mother sunbathes or chats to her friends). I have experienced several instances of him throwing sand in mine and my ds's faces. poor ds2 was screaming because he had loads of sand in his eyes. He also continuously snatches my boys toys and gets up to various naughty things.

I don't understand how any mother could let her child behave like like whether he has Down's/autism/AS/etc. She literally completely blanks him out while she is in the playground. Poor kid. Yes, maybe she is depressed, and I'm sure she has a hard time looking after her child with special needs, but what HE STILL NEEDS DISCIPLINE!

My autsitic DS has thrown sand at people when he was younger, but we would firstly profusely apologise, and secondly remove him from the park. But ignoring this behaviour is dangerous.
I suspect he also had autism

RnBee, while I know exactly what you mean, I wonder how you would be coping if it wasn't for the ABA course? The OP's friend sounds as though she is floundering in the pre-dx/no support period at the moment. I'm sure once she has the dx and is able to access more support and professional help then she will be far more capable of dealing with her son's behaviour.

FWIW, I agree that ASD children need boundaries. Our dfs has very strict boundaries when he comes here but we were one step removed from the situation when he first came to us. We didn't have any emotional involvement at the beginning so could implement them, and deal with the inevitable fall out, more dispassionately than his parents. If we'd had to deal with his behaviours day in, day out we would probably have cracked too. I don't honestly think it's possible to effectively manage ASD behaviour with some kind of professional, expert input. You are very lucky, RnBee, that you had that and it has enabled you to manage your dc. Hopefully in the future the OP's friend will be as lucky. In the meantime she is stuck and despairing.

Sorry, that should read 'I don't honestly think it's possible to effectively manage ASD behaviour without some kind of professional, expert input.'

I agree, all we did with dfs was basic stuff, but there's a limit to how effective positive praise can be when the child has limited understanding. It was also very, very intensive and I can completely understand how people give up in that situation when they have no help or break from it.

sorry posted that before I had finished... I suspect the poor kid also has autism, which is a shocking double blow to the family. A couple of times my au pair has had to approach the mother to ask her for a toy back or something, and the mother pretends she has no idea what she is talking about (arrghhh).

Yes Electra, I see what you are saying about receptive language. He may just appear to understand. But reinforcement/non-reinforcement strategies work beyond language. And of course not comparing our kids to dogs or any other animal (well sometimes ds1 is a monkey ), but look at Pavlov's dog. Of course I am not encouraging physical negative reinforcement but the adoption of positive reinforcement is an excellent method of teaching behaviour.

I completely agree with setting boundaries for autistic children. I also completely agree that when you use ABA that you have lots of potential strategies that you can try. I also know that when you have non-verbal children the strategies that you have access to are far more limited, and that you usually need training to start to understand how to apply them. That's why I suggested starting with the Earlybird course. The mother would at least learn to ABC behaviour which is (imo) the first step to starting to manage it. I'm also aware (unfortunately from experience) that sometimes these strategies don't work.

Ha ha RnBee i was going to use a similar dog analogy earlier but backed out thinking I'd be shot down in flames

Exactly, gess. It is very difficult to get into all the reasons behind a behaviour. Conventional boundary setting and methods of discipline are designed by NT people for NT children on the assumption of how a NT mind works.

Hi RnBee, yes I changed my name because in RL someone had worked out who I was.

Yes, of course, Olihan, I agree with everything you say. BUT all I was originally saying is that I don't think Snowleopard should be criticised for feeling this way about this boy. We both know autism is a scary and sometimes imnpossible thing for families to cope and deal with.

I empathise completely with the poor mum. Before diagnosis and before we started our ABA programme I would be running round the toddler groups (while heavily pregnant ) trying to stop ds1 detroying everything in sight. Of course there would be times when I would give up with despair and be devastated and embarrassed by his behaviour.

Its no reason to ignore the behaviour though. I hope the mum gets the help she needs. Although nowadays its hard to find.