What should I do about my friend's 3 year old son who wrecks my house?

[mummyluvsyoo]

Help! My DS is 3.

I have a friend who has a son also aged 3. The boy doesn't speak - although he does understand language. His social behaviour is inappropriate for his age (no eye contact, no imaginative play, no parralel or co-operative play, no interest in social interaction) and he is now being assessed although they have been given a provisional diagnosis of high functioning autism.

My problem is that my friend does not attempt to impose even the simplest boundaries on his behaviour - so when he comes to the house he literally runs around, jumps on the sofas and wrecks everything in sight. If we ask him to stop he just ignores us. If my DS behaved in this way I would go and remove him from the situation - but my friend doesn't do this. On one occasion when he was in DS's room he threw all his toys off the shelves and would not share them with DS. My friend did not really try and stop him from doing this, even though I asked her to. I have not let him go upstairs since. She avoids any situation where her DS will not get his own way. On the occasions when she has got him to sit down, for example, doing colouring he grabs all the crayons and when my DS tries to share them he refuses - but my friend then tells MY(!) DS to let HER boy have the crayons - which is unfair. She does the same thing when we go to their house. So it ends up that my DS feels he has been naughty when he has not.

I thought the solution would be to just not meet at home and be in open places. However this boy is just like other 3 year olds in terms of physical development. Because he doesn't interact with DS and is in his own world I worry that my DS might get hurt, especially on climbing frames, etc. I can't even let this boy in the garden because he runs in places that he shouldn't. His behaviour in restaurants etc is so inappropriate that the whole event is just too stressful and I am left wondering why I bothered. I am also worried that DS will be influenced by this behaviour.

I am finding the whole thing very frustrating. My DS is not getting the benefit of a "normal" social interaction.
I don't want to ostracize my friend during what must be a very difficult time for her. I would like the boys to continue to play together but only if she can take steps to impose some boundaries on his behaviour. However I think that she just thinks that I am being over-precious about my house. I admit that I am tidy and organised - but I don't have a problem with children's mess - it's the destructive behaviour that I object to with my friend's son. My DS's other little friends make one helluva mess but they are never destructive in this way.

My DS likes him coming round but doesn't like when he is "naughty" as he puts it. Similarly the boy seems to like coming to our house - but unfortunately treats it like a barn! I get upset when my DS gets treated unfairly by my friend, especially in his own house, with his own toys!

It is not that I am discriminating against the boy - it's just that if my friend doesn't even try and control him then he will never learn how to behave. I don't feel this is a problem to do with his suspected autism - I would be writing this about any child who behaved in this way in my house.

So what should I do. My friend is so keen that the boys remain friends - but after last week - I don't know what to do - being with them is not an enjoyable experience, for me, my DS or my DH who has to scrape me off the floor and give me intravenous wine after one of their visits

Pleasant post there Rabbleraiser, I must say.

but what difference does his dx make? I don't understand. He patently has behavioural difficulties that are being investigated

fuck, fuckety fuck fuck .. and I am a school governor .. so?

I've never yet heard of someone being given a provisional dx and it not being made official later.

Mummyluvsyoo,

IO've not read the whole of the thread but realsie that there have been raised voices so to speak.

My intial thoughts are that your friend is possibly worn out by her son and totally at a loss as to how to get through to him and so seems to do nothing, in your eyes.

Have you been able to talk to her about her son's diagnosis without the kids around? Have you been able to just tell her you realise that things are tough for her and can't possibly begin to imagine how she copes? I think that you might find the floodgates open... What help is she getting for coping with her ds? probably nothing yet if full diagnosis has not been made yet, which is why she seems unable to discipline him...

These are just my thoughts from the outside on what you've told us. I've coped with a ADHD lad in early primary school after school hours and it was HARD!!!! His mother didn't seem to do much discipline either, but she was a single parent, working fulltime and exhausted! I was thankful when the child was able to go to afterschool club as I have not been trained to deal with childcare let alone special needs. I was just helping out short term.

I understand your frustration but don't have anything else to offer with regard to advice.

He has been given a provisional dx. They do not dish out the A word and the provisional dx unless a child is going to be formally dxed. DS1 was given a provisional dx half way through his assessment. It was explained that this was the same thing as a dx, that he would be dxed but that couldn;t be made formally until all 8 people that needed to be in the room were in the room 8 weeks later.

Sigh, again. I've stuck with the OP all evening and feel fairly worn out by it now.

Have it your own way girls. It's called hijacking (and I've all seen your swear words on other threads, so don't give me that).

The OP has not been given any support on this thread. You should have gone to another one if you wanted to make a point. If you actually read her words (which you don't), you would get the nuances that come from years of firm friendship.

It seems to me from reading this thread, that someone who doesn't have an autistic child is not entitled to an opinion.

We can't feel your pain. Enlightenment is better than bullyish cynicism.

yes .. enlightenment .. what a good choice of words

I am at a loss to see why you feel OP is being attacked .. is it merely because nobody is agreeing with the central premise of it .. that its the parent's fault?

is it?

I'm not being funny, I'm trying to understand

and once again .. I don't have a child with autism .. does that mean I can't have my own opinion

The OP's point is that the mother does nothing. Surely if a child shoves another child so hard that she breaks a tooth, the mother should at least make sure the other child is ok and apologise to the parent, as any parent would whether their child is autistic or not.

nor do I - but I still read the OP honestly wondering if it was for real.

And yes I swear, but if I was to tell someone on MN to fuck off - I'd at least make sure we'd been introduced first

That is very unfair rabbleraiser. The op clearly has a complete lack of understanding of ASD, or of the reasons why children with ASD cannot be "disciplined" in the same way as NT children (the reason they can't is because their behaviour has an entirely different function). Then when people express their annoyance at the complete lack of understanding and empathy she tells them to F off or not post.

I get the distinct impression she seems to feel that this family needs to change to suit her and her ds's requirements.

TBH rr posts have made me even more and

I have no axe to grind. I have no hidden agenda or personal crusade. I do not have a child with autism and the information I do know about it comes from people like Gess on MN - those who live with it day in day out.

This child clearly has some special needs. Okay, there is no dx as yet and that dx might not even be autism. But read the OP - this three year old in non verbal. This is a big delay surely? This is a SN. The behaviour presented is not normal behaviour from the sound of it, and also points towards some form of SN, whatever that may be. The specialists involved obviously feel that the child has SN as he is in the process of being assessed for SN.

So I think it is safe to say that the OP is talking about a child with special needs.

The OP has two choices: get out or stay put. If she odes the latter she needs to become more tolerate and more supportive of her friend. These behaviours and special needs most likely will not go away and TBH will become more apparant as the child gets older. The friend needs empathy and supprt, not criticism.

I agree that the situation in the home would be very stressful and therefore the OP, if she does decide to stay put needs to consider alternative places to meet her friend and child - maybe in the friend's home, at the park or some other safe environment.

I am suprised that the OP does not present more empathy and understanding of the SN and/or autism if she works in a special school and has a relative with autism.

If this thread wasn't so sad it would be funny!

The OP starts by saying that there is a child with a possible ASD dx who is 'difficult' to be around, and that she, in essence, feels the mother should more proactively parent.

It is then pointed out by those people who might be expected to know, that children with a ASD dx behave in this way sometimes and that there is actually little the mum can do to manage this behaviour.

Then the OP takes umbrage because she works in a special school and so understands ASD and then goes on to tell someone to fuck off. Then the OP's 'best mate' for the night comes on and tells everyone off for posting their views, which presumably was what the OP wanted in the first place, because they weren;t supportive enough????

What a bizarre thread!

What a crap friend!

Hey ho! At least she can walk away from it all at the end of each visit!

Message deleted

oookkayyy.
Am not rejoining the fun
BUT, MLU - have you tried talking to your friend about this away from kids - night out in the pub? Might help you both.

OK.

So, I can see it makes you cross that this child is trashing your house.

But remember she lives with him, and therefore knows him better than you.

Would you still want to put him on the naughty step if you knew he just did not understand? If it would be three minutes of pointless screaming? If he would get off the naughty step and do exactly the same thing again? And again. And again. And AGAIN, until he tires of it?

Well, maybe your friend does know this, and is therefore reluctant to do it just for you.

It's ok to feel like you don't want the child to be around yours because you can't cope - but it isn't ok to blame a possible Autism diagnosis on lack of discipline.

If your friend lives with this, I imagine she has gone quite blind to how destructive her child is - as mine was at three, although not Autistic, certainly not particularly verbal. She may imagine that all children behave like this, and therefore you are used to it too.

I have always been surprised at how considering and obediant most children are, as ds1 is the type to fling himself down the stairs, then fling himself down the stairs again, to see if it hurts this^ time.

Throwing in yet another suggestion - you are a governor of a special school, but the children you see with autism are presumably quite a bit older than this 3 year old. Do you have much direct experience with suspected SN children this young? I have no experience either, but could it be that your knowledge of older SN children is getting in the way a bit?

You have seen how teachers relate to and help moderate the behaviour of older SN chilren, and at some level, even without thinking it through, you are expecting this to be as possible with a 3 year old. Excuse me if I am speaking out of turn, but it's just a thought.

Also, the reason your friend appears to you to be too passive could be because you are used to seeing teachers and helpers apply coping strategies (again for older children)? So on one level, you have raised expectations of how this mother should be acting. And your expectations are unrealistic for a mother with a 3 year old.

And also, your friend may have raised expectations of you as well. If she sees you as someone who is very aware of special needs issues, and tolerant of special needs problems, she may feel your understanding of her son has no bounds and you are never personally stressed by his behaviour.

If any of this rings true, could you somehow convey to your friend that you are not at all experienced with special needs children of her son's age and find it all very different.

Slow to verbalise children often seem to be extremely destructive, ds1's destructiveness didn't calm down until his speech started picking up after Christmas - and he is 4.

mummyluvsyoo I can see how this thread has got totally out of hand and I am sorry for you. It's a nasty thread. Sorry you didn't get any decent advice.

Sorry but I do think that there is a lot of good advice on this thread!

Re the tooth thing> yes tbh I would expect the mother to see to the other child if she was in a position to do so. I wouldn't expect her to necessarily tell her son off, would depend on the situation. When ds1 hursts other kids its often because he just hasn;t clocked that they are there, so telling him off other than "look" and pointing at the child is pointless. Actually that's fairly pointless.

The last time I saw ds1 flatten another child we were in a park. He ran off- me right behnd him- he went straight into a girl who muist have been 2 or 3- sent her flying and all her sweets flying. Her mum nowhere to be seen. I automatically stopped to help but ds1 had run off, so after just enough time to say "oh my god" I had to run off after ds1 and leave her to scrabble amongst the gravel. That park has 3 exits- one that leads onto a main road. I simply cannot leave ds1 in an environment like that or he could be quickly dead on the road.

We left the park and no longer go there (too busy, so that sort of thing is liable to happen all the time).

~TM can I admit I'm PMSL at your last post (in a nice way) because ds1 was a pussycat behaviour wise at 3 compared to now. Non-verbal 8 year olds are much harder than non verbal 3 year olds and presumably get harder as they get older (and bigger). colditz is right- without fluent communication of some form behaviours usually remain challenging.

Although having said that 2 of the most challenging autistic children I have met have had relatively good speech. So its not always a simple relationship.

I would just like to say thanks to Olihan regarding your earlier post. It has helped me to put some things into perspective. This provisional diagnosis is very recent, but I guess my friend knows her own son and the effect that so-called normal discipline has on him - I can see that like me - she doesn't know enough about this to know what to do and obviously once a diagnosis becomes formalised she can't be given strategies that may help her (and yes Gess, even if she did, they might not work).

Gess - you have been brutally honest and I have found your comments very useful. But I will tell you that I was very upset reading the venom in some of the posts - and the negative judgements on my personal character. I have never been in this situation before. My position at the school is relatively new and until now I have never ever been in contact with any behavioural difficulties up close and personal so it is very hard for me to deal with - but I am not in the habit of turning my back on my friends - if it is hard for me then it is 1000+++ times more hard for her - so it is not as simple as saying if I can't deal with it I should not bother - not for me anyway. By the way in my professional life I am a professional - we are all grown ups here and from what I have read on other posts MN is not exactly the Townswomen's Guild. Concentrating on these little things just goes away from the debate.

MMMM you are right - I feel guilty - even for writing this post. I feel guilty every time I wince when my friend's DS does something and I feel guilty for wanting an easy life. Sometimes I even feel guilty for having a child who does not have such issues - when she is clearly struggling to cope.

I really don't feel that MN is the place for me to get advice so I am ending my contribution to this post as of now.

Thank you Rabbleraiser for (trying to) add reason to this "debate". And thanks for all the other mums who saw this post for what it was - a situation between two friends trying to make the best of a difficult situation.

I haven;t made any negative judgements on your character.

I've said that I would be horrified to hear a teacher talk like that at ds1's school (I would). That's not a ajudgment on your character. I said I found the OP unpleasant (I did). That's also not a judgment on your character. I;ve also said that I agree with Twig. Autistic behaviours are often very difficult to be around. You don't have to be around them, and if you dont want to then don't. That's also not a judgment on your character.