What should I do about my friend's 3 year old son who wrecks my house?

[mummyluvsyoo]

Help! My DS is 3.

I have a friend who has a son also aged 3. The boy doesn't speak - although he does understand language. His social behaviour is inappropriate for his age (no eye contact, no imaginative play, no parralel or co-operative play, no interest in social interaction) and he is now being assessed although they have been given a provisional diagnosis of high functioning autism.

My problem is that my friend does not attempt to impose even the simplest boundaries on his behaviour - so when he comes to the house he literally runs around, jumps on the sofas and wrecks everything in sight. If we ask him to stop he just ignores us. If my DS behaved in this way I would go and remove him from the situation - but my friend doesn't do this. On one occasion when he was in DS's room he threw all his toys off the shelves and would not share them with DS. My friend did not really try and stop him from doing this, even though I asked her to. I have not let him go upstairs since. She avoids any situation where her DS will not get his own way. On the occasions when she has got him to sit down, for example, doing colouring he grabs all the crayons and when my DS tries to share them he refuses - but my friend then tells MY(!) DS to let HER boy have the crayons - which is unfair. She does the same thing when we go to their house. So it ends up that my DS feels he has been naughty when he has not.

I thought the solution would be to just not meet at home and be in open places. However this boy is just like other 3 year olds in terms of physical development. Because he doesn't interact with DS and is in his own world I worry that my DS might get hurt, especially on climbing frames, etc. I can't even let this boy in the garden because he runs in places that he shouldn't. His behaviour in restaurants etc is so inappropriate that the whole event is just too stressful and I am left wondering why I bothered. I am also worried that DS will be influenced by this behaviour.

I am finding the whole thing very frustrating. My DS is not getting the benefit of a "normal" social interaction.
I don't want to ostracize my friend during what must be a very difficult time for her. I would like the boys to continue to play together but only if she can take steps to impose some boundaries on his behaviour. However I think that she just thinks that I am being over-precious about my house. I admit that I am tidy and organised - but I don't have a problem with children's mess - it's the destructive behaviour that I object to with my friend's son. My DS's other little friends make one helluva mess but they are never destructive in this way.

My DS likes him coming round but doesn't like when he is "naughty" as he puts it. Similarly the boy seems to like coming to our house - but unfortunately treats it like a barn! I get upset when my DS gets treated unfairly by my friend, especially in his own house, with his own toys!

It is not that I am discriminating against the boy - it's just that if my friend doesn't even try and control him then he will never learn how to behave. I don't feel this is a problem to do with his suspected autism - I would be writing this about any child who behaved in this way in my house.

So what should I do. My friend is so keen that the boys remain friends - but after last week - I don't know what to do - being with them is not an enjoyable experience, for me, my DS or my DH who has to scrape me off the floor and give me intravenous wine after one of their visits

That link always makes me cry And I don't usually cry at stuyff like that (I'm usually muttering about things like that being cheesy ). I think I've used almost every single line in the film so it really hit home.

Oh Giddy, you poor thing. It must be really hard for you, even if you know you are doing the right thing, which you will be, because it's clear that you love her so very much.
I think there has been some hideous venom on this thread, and it wasn't from you or Gess or Twiglett....

gess - I have only just stopped the tears!

What has happened on this thread is so typical of many threads that even dare to touch upon autism. Firstly, you're blasted if you find a child with ASD difficult (or as in this case one who may have ASD). You're told to stop being so selfish and have empathy with the child's parents (even though the OP DID show empathy). And also we hear from some quarters that a parent shouldn't be expected even to attempt to discipline a child with ASD, because it doesn't work, or to apologise for their behaviour, because they can't help it.

But isn't that completely illogical? A lot of work is done with people with ASD to help them live their lives happily and get on with others as well as they can. They're not somehow idiots by definition - many of them can, actually, learn and understand rules (in fact in some cases the more rigid and clear the rules are, the better they cope, as with my BIL who has Asperger's). Furthermore, even if it doesn't have an impact on the child, it's an important thing to do to say to them that what they did was wrong and hurt another child, or someone's feelings, or their furniture or whatever - this helps maintain the bond between the parent and other parents, and where small children are concerned it helps them not to feel that the situation is their fault, or the hurt they suffer something they deserve - as raised by the OP.

Isn't it obvious that some parents let their children run riot and don't seem to give a hoot about their child's impact on other people? Just because their child might turn out to have ASD, does that somehow mean that parent suddenly becomes a perfect saint? No. They still may be able to learn to handle the situation better. Raising that possibility isn't some hideous slur on all parents of children with SN. With this child who knows, he may have ASD AND his behaviour might actually improve if his mother gave him some boundaries.

My BIL has had to learn to live in society. Just because he has Asperger's doesn't mean he's above the law, or is allowed to go around doing inappropriate things that hurt other people or their property. Yes he needs support, but it is actually of benefit to him to be informed where the boundaries are too. OK maybe this wouldn't work with all people with ASD - but it would be doing the child in this case a huge disservice to decide he never needs any discipline - or even any information about how he's meant to behave - once he gets a dx.

After all why is ASD so distressing and such an issue? It's because it involves behaviour that is socially upsetting and exhausting and very hard to deal with. It isn't a crime to say so.

Aspergers is a long way from non-verbal autism, both in terms of what can be expected behaviour wise and what needs to be taught behaviour wise. This boy won't be diagnosed with AS because he has a speech delay. Talking and explaining how to behave to to a non-vebral child is pretty much a waste of time. That doesn't mean that there aren't behavouoral methods that can be applied, but to use them effectively you generally need training.

No-one has blasted the OP for finding autistic behaviour difficult. No-one has said that someone shouldn't apologise for their child's behaviour if someone gets hurt. It has been said that it isn't always possible.

The boy has "been given a provisional diagnosis of high functioning autism" - high-functioning being a similar part of the spectrum to Asperger's.

This is a long thread, and I haven't read every post.
You know how you feel after one visit, Mummylovesyou. Imagine how your friend feels at the end of every day! Do they have to come to your house? Is it easier if you go to their house or the park? I know her child is a pain, but please continue to support your friend. I think she has tried to control her son, but has found the usual methods don't work, and seems to have given up. Please speak to your friend and let her knowhow you feel. She is a friend, after all.

He's non verbal. If you look at my earlier posts you will see that my son was also said to be HFA. So high functioing that his problems would be so mild as to not need a diagnosis. He's not he's severely autistic. Diagnosing a non-verbal child as HFA is nonsensical as the child will only be truly high functioning if they develop conversational speech. Actually thinking about it my friend's dd was diagnosed as having HFA as well- she doesn't and they had to remove the HF bit.

Whether he;s HF or not, he's non verbal, so you can;t treat him like a child with conversational language skills. If you follow the link to the film below you'll see children his age and a little older who have no or only limited speech.

Hard one, but I would say that if you don't understand something, either read up on it, or let your friend go. I don't think you are horrible if you do this. I have a friend with 3 under 5 and believe me they wreck my house, this is probably more to do with the fact that we are sitting drinking tea and chatting, rather than supervising. But I love my friend and our relationship is worth it!!

some of the younger children in that film may end up developing language and becoming high functioning, at which stage you can bring out the social stories etc; but you do need certain developmental skills in place first of all. It is very difficult to take a non verbal 2 or 3 year old autistic child and give a prognosis. Many practioners will only dx "somewhere on the autistic spectrum" because of this difficulty. Some children will develop language and remain severely autistic (think Roz Blackburn- she can give a talk to a room of 100's of people that could win awards its so good and fluent, but she;s severely autistic, needs constant care, wears nappies, is not safe to go out alone and cannot wait her turn in supermarket queues).

Guess, I've always said my son was 'So Mild he didn't need a diagnosis' I'm now desperate for a diagnosis, but am scared we won't get one. Are you still around?

yes- how old is he?

He was 8 in January.

Doo you have a local NAS group- the best way to find out about dx. locally they have just started a multidisciplinary assessment group for school aged children, where the child is seen and assessed all in one day. It does vary from area to area though. Traditionally its the CAHMS route for older children, but I don;t know much about that as ds1 was diagnosed as a pre-schooler so through the child development centre. You probably know all this already. I'd really recommend seeking out other parents thoough to find out the score locally.

Our NAS meeting have a number of people come who have yet to get dx.

Cahms are being very slow! DS refused to go into school for 5 days. We then found out it was because the school had changed the time table after Easter. Once we'd got hold of the time table he skipped happily in! I feel a real fraud at the moment, as we don't yet have a diagnosis. I didn't reaslise there wee local groups. Can I find a local group through the NAS website?

I know I said I would not post again. But I want to say thank you so much Gess for the link to the film. It was very informative and in many ways I can see my friend as being at the beginning of a very long and challenging journey. I want to support her as much as I can and I guess we will have to find a way of doing this that works for both of us.

I have always been sceptical about the "high functioning" part of the provisional diagnosis, I guess she is in denial about the whole thing, which is understandable. Lately I feel as though she is trying to "sell" me the idea that her son does not have a significant problem, that our two children will go to the same school and be in the same class. When she does this I don't know what to say to her. I find it so stressful - I don't want to hurt her feelings but I don't want to play into her denial that everything will be OK and that this is just a little "glich" that will go away. Even though my knowledge of these things is limited compared to those who have to live with it everyday - it is still more than hers, but for me to tell her the "bad news" if you like - that she won't be able to hothouse her DS out of his autism, seems cruel.

Sometimes it's very very hard to discuss stuff like this with close friends. You have my sympathies.

Don't think you can say anything to her about the future - too much for you to take on when you there are no hard and fast facts.

If you feel guilty that you may be building up her hopes, can you tell her how little you know about autism but say you are there for her if she wants to talk to you about it. Listening to her hopeful talk is all you can do, I think.

MLT- she will probably come to terms with it in her own time, and I think you are right not to tell her that you suspect her son is not HF. I love my son's school now- he goes to an SLD/PMLD school and it is one of the most wonderful places I have ever set foot in. It really is a special place and I am so pleased he goes there. But if you have taken me there when ds1 was 3 to show me where he would end up I would have been sick on the spot from shock and horror. It woud have been very very difficult to handle. Mind you given inclusion your sons may end up in the same class - ds1 spent 4 terms in mainstream (disaster- not to be recomended!)

One thing I think would be really helpful for her if you could do it would be to help her hook up with others. If ;possible (and I know its hard childcare etc) perhaps you could offer to go with her to an NAS meeting or something, just so she starts to meet other. My best support comes from other's going through it as well. Sorry things went a bit pear shaped earlier. I really do understand how difficult it is to be around the behaviour. Perhaps try and set boundaries so only allow certain rooms to be used and then supervise very heavily. Lock rooms if youhave to. I lock rooms in my own house sometimes to keep ds1 out if I have to.

Lynette- yep have a look at the NAS website or email/phone their helpline to get your local group. You won't be a fraud, our meetings have a number of people desperately trying to get a diagnosis and local knowledge is invaluable. Where are you- if you don't mind saying I may be able to put you in contact with someone.

MLY I mean!

I'm in Warwickshire.

Hmmmm let me think. I can't think of anyone off hand but will ponder overnight.

local branches here, although there are gaps because our branch is not mentioned. Would be worth contacting the NAS helpline. Also worth maybe trying the parent to parent helpline.

I am off to bed now but I will continue to watch this thread because now that the initial shock-horror has died down - I am actually finding it very supportive and helpful. I really have been given food for thought tonight. Thank you all - even the people who thought I was just a horrible unsupportive selfish person, for the insights I have gained into this topic tonight.

MLY, I'm glad you came back, it's a difficult topic not to get emotive about, I think.

FYIW, I think your friend's reaction is very 'normal' for a parent in her situation. I have some very good friends who have a daughter is very severely disabled - she is 19 now, still non verbal, still doubly incontinent, can only just feed herself with a spoon and is unable to care for herself at all. Yet as a toddler (when she wasn't sitting, babbling or playing) her parents were convinced she''d go to mainstream school. This wasn't helped by a paed at that time telling them she'd was probably just a little developmentally delayed but would catch up with her peers by the time they started school.

Your friend also sounds as though she is being given false hope by the professionals, or she is clinging to tiny glimmers of hope that they are offering. I've read somewhere that having a child diagnosed with a SN is a process similar to grieving and one has to go through the steps of disbelief, anger, sadness, etc before they reach acceptance. As a councellor you are in a great position to support your friend throgh it, I don't think you can change the way she is reacting to it all at the moment, she will do that gradually in her own time I would think.

You do sound like you want to be a really good friend to her, perhaps you could contact the NAS and see if there is any literature or even courses for family and friends, to give you some more ideas of ways to continue helping?