What should I do about my friend's 3 year old son who wrecks my house?

[mummyluvsyoo]

Help! My DS is 3.

I have a friend who has a son also aged 3. The boy doesn't speak - although he does understand language. His social behaviour is inappropriate for his age (no eye contact, no imaginative play, no parralel or co-operative play, no interest in social interaction) and he is now being assessed although they have been given a provisional diagnosis of high functioning autism.

My problem is that my friend does not attempt to impose even the simplest boundaries on his behaviour - so when he comes to the house he literally runs around, jumps on the sofas and wrecks everything in sight. If we ask him to stop he just ignores us. If my DS behaved in this way I would go and remove him from the situation - but my friend doesn't do this. On one occasion when he was in DS's room he threw all his toys off the shelves and would not share them with DS. My friend did not really try and stop him from doing this, even though I asked her to. I have not let him go upstairs since. She avoids any situation where her DS will not get his own way. On the occasions when she has got him to sit down, for example, doing colouring he grabs all the crayons and when my DS tries to share them he refuses - but my friend then tells MY(!) DS to let HER boy have the crayons - which is unfair. She does the same thing when we go to their house. So it ends up that my DS feels he has been naughty when he has not.

I thought the solution would be to just not meet at home and be in open places. However this boy is just like other 3 year olds in terms of physical development. Because he doesn't interact with DS and is in his own world I worry that my DS might get hurt, especially on climbing frames, etc. I can't even let this boy in the garden because he runs in places that he shouldn't. His behaviour in restaurants etc is so inappropriate that the whole event is just too stressful and I am left wondering why I bothered. I am also worried that DS will be influenced by this behaviour.

I am finding the whole thing very frustrating. My DS is not getting the benefit of a "normal" social interaction.
I don't want to ostracize my friend during what must be a very difficult time for her. I would like the boys to continue to play together but only if she can take steps to impose some boundaries on his behaviour. However I think that she just thinks that I am being over-precious about my house. I admit that I am tidy and organised - but I don't have a problem with children's mess - it's the destructive behaviour that I object to with my friend's son. My DS's other little friends make one helluva mess but they are never destructive in this way.

My DS likes him coming round but doesn't like when he is "naughty" as he puts it. Similarly the boy seems to like coming to our house - but unfortunately treats it like a barn! I get upset when my DS gets treated unfairly by my friend, especially in his own house, with his own toys!

It is not that I am discriminating against the boy - it's just that if my friend doesn't even try and control him then he will never learn how to behave. I don't feel this is a problem to do with his suspected autism - I would be writing this about any child who behaved in this way in my house.

So what should I do. My friend is so keen that the boys remain friends - but after last week - I don't know what to do - being with them is not an enjoyable experience, for me, my DS or my DH who has to scrape me off the floor and give me intravenous wine after one of their visits

The thing with autism in particular though is that it is so very difficult to tell. Take a non-verbal child at 2 or 3, and really you have no way of knowing what their prognosis is. Even with ds1- non-verbal aged 8- yes the chances are that he won't talk, but I have come across adults who didn't talk until 13 and as adults are very high functioning. I have now had contact with 2 people who appear to be very like ds1 (certainly had very similar behaviour to him at his age), who are still non-verbal, still require a very high level of care, and yet have studied at university level. They way in which any child progresses will depend on their particular mix of language difficulties, learning difficulties and also things like level of motor planning problems and executive funcition problems. So as a parent even if you're being brutally realistic (which is very hard to do when for the first approx 2 years of the child's life you've had what you thought was a "normal" child) you really have no idea what the future holds. Children with HFA can still have very significant difficulties and many challenging behaviours, especially when young.

TBH we very rarely go to people's houses as they're just not set up for ds1. It's no fun traipsing after him upstairs (trying to keep him out of people's beds, trying to stop him leaning out of windows), it all seems rather pointless. I keep up with a lot of friendships by phone, or people pop round here as our house is set up so I don't have to watch him every minute.

I do feel for the OP, she came on hear asking for support and help. I don't think she was being judgemental, but actually quite brave in saying that she found the time spent with her friend and her son difficult. She wants to change this, she wants to support her friend, she knows it's incessant for her friend and she wanted some help to understand and deal with her own emotions. Lots of others would have just walked away, but no, she wants to stand by her friend and support but was finding it hard and needed some strategies.

So what happened, she got jumped on.

Shame on you.

I think the thread's really positive atm, the OP has said how helpful it has been. Why try to cause trouble at this stage?

Actually, GOW, she has had LOTS of help and support, has said thank you for it. This is her final post last night:

'I will continue to watch this thread because now that the initial shock-horror has died down - I am actually finding it very supportive and helpful. I really have been given food for thought tonight. Thank you all - even the people who thought I was just a horrible unsupportive selfish person, for the insights I have gained into this topic tonight.'

There was a bit of jumping early on but on the whole it has been very positive for her. If you reread the whole thread carefully you will see that. Please don't start stirring things up again.

Agree with you glassofwine but the thread has been pulled around and everyone's getting on now! As can sometimes happen. It's great to see that MN can be used for a dialogue between those who don't have a child with SN and those who do - as it should be - instead of, as sometimes happens, seeming like a battleground.

I don't have a child with SN (so far, as far as I know) but as there is ASD in the family I'm very aware that this could (and may one day) be me too - and I think it's so much better if people can resist "jumping" on those who are simply well-meaning and need advice.

ok, yesterday I was very annoyed by this thread. However, I can see that for some people they will not necessarily understand about what you can and can't get a child of 3 with ASD to do.

When my dd was 3 we would have struggled to get her to do anything. She would not sit down for more than about 2 seconds. If I had taken her round to my friend's house and the friend had said "You know you really should make her sit down, her behaviour isn't acceptable and my dd isn't able to interact with her" I would probably not have bothered further with the friendship.

Anyway, just wanted to say that snowleopard I think your idea that children with ASD just need a firmer hand and more rigid rules is pretty unrealistic. As gess has said, when a child has no language you cannot reason with them about anything, or cause them to come to understand anyone else's agenda but their own.

It's true that you can work on behaviours that children with ASD have, but the reality is that it is takes many hours of hard work to bring about foundations to work with. I think we've been lucky because my dd has had access to the kind of support which means she now has language and can access things outside her home to some degree. However, she still knows nothing about social expectations and will, for example draw Peppa Pig on the walls of the house if she can (she's 5). She doesn't understand why she shouldn't but we can now stop her doing it without massive fall out. But that is only after 2 years of very intensive intervention.

I really didn't say that Electra, and it's a slightly sarcastic and unpleasant approximation of what I did say. Not all children with ASD are identical. Some do benefit from boundaries. In this case we don't know what the boy's exact Dx will be and his mother - yes, however much of a hard time she may be having - could do more to be aware of his impact on the other child, IMO, and try to help to limit it or at least help the other child to understand it's not his fault - and communication between her and her supportive friend the OP could help her. I think it is a possibility that she could help him by being less lax. That does not mean I think children with ASD are just naughty and just need more rules. It means I know a person with asd (who was also non-verbal at 3 btw) who responds well to boundaries - just as you know one who doesn't. There is a spectrum and we don't atm know where this boy is on the spectrum.

If what I really thought was "children with ASD just need a firmer hand" I could have said so, Daily-Mail style. That's not what I said.

That's what I mean by jumping. Take a carefully considered and respectful statement someone has made, and just because they don't, like you, have a chld with ASD, you twist it around and accuse them of some outrageous, highly prejudiced, idiotic belief. It's not necvessary and not useful. If you think I'm wrong, you can explain that to me carefully without resorting to ridiculing and misrepresenting what I said. can't you?

I wouldn't be able to cope with that regularly TBH

snowleopard - If I've misinterpreted what you meant then I apologise.

You said "his behaviour might actually improve if his mother gave him some boundaries."

I don't agree with the suggestion that it's somehow her fault and her child is being "allowed" to just run riot.

Can you explain how she might set these boundaries when he has no language? What would you do if he was your child?

have not read whole thread. used to have afriend come round with a "naughty" boy.. I think most of have... she was looking for a dx of ASD and got borderline. i used to be shocked and critica f her when she smacked him!
i spose parenting is a personal thing.
stopping him going upstairs is a good idea.
i was going to suggest soft play for his energy.. how many 3 year olds could cope in a restaurent anyway..
anyway I can understand your position but other than that have no ideas

Well, he is 3. If he breaks something, or uses something eg a pen to deface something, she could take that thing away from him and distract him with another activity. She could also tell him not to. As she hasn't ever appeared to try disciplining him or showing boundaries at all, we don't yet know whether this will have an effect. Maybe it won't change his behaviour, but it would at least help to limit its impact on other people. That would be good for her relationship with her friend, and also one person I am thinking of is the OP's DS, who is ending up feeling like he's being bad when he isn't - it would help him to see that the other child isn't allowed to wreck his stuff and that it's not his fault or something he deserves.

I totally admit that I haven't been there and that having a child for whom "normal" discipline doesn't work must be horribly frustrating and disheartening. But she hasn't even tried, and we don't yet know if the boy definitely has asd, or where he is on the spectrum. So it seems to be defeatist for her not to try at this stage.

To quote from the OP:

"My problem is that my friend does not attempt to impose even the simplest boundaries on his behaviour - so when he comes to the house he literally runs around, jumps on the sofas and wrecks everything in sight... If my DS behaved in this way I would go and remove him from the situation - but my friend doesn't do this... She avoids any situation where her DS will not get his own way. On the occasions when she has got him to sit down, for example, doing colouring he grabs all the crayons and when my DS tries to share them he refuses - but my friend then tells MY(!) DS to let HER boy have the crayons - which is unfair."

ASD or not, I think this mother does actually need to wade in a bit more - as many of you with children with SN have said that you Do wade in when necessary. Firstly, it may actually help her DS - we don't know, we really don't. Secondly, as an adult around the OP's DS, her behaviour isn't helping him much.

My initial post simply objected to people implying that the child has asd and therefore can't be naughty, can do no wrong, she need not bother with discipline and he should be allowed to wreak havoc. I just don't agree with that - and that does not equate to thinking children with asd are just naughty and need a firm hand. It's far more complex than that.

But he has no language snowleopard. How is he going to understand being told not to do something?

Children who have no language are very difficult to teach. We don't know that this mother doesn't try to intervene but just that she doesn't impose what the OP perceives to be some kind of discipline iyswim. I don't know this child, but I suspect that his mother "avoids any situation where the child will not get his own way" because the fall out of not doing that would be a meltdown worse than the original behaviour.

As I said, it is possible to change behaviour in children with ASD, but is hard work, cannot be done by the parents alone and it is important to understand that the function of the behaviour will be very different than a NT child exhibiting the same behaviour as I said before.

I agree that challenging behaviour is often a part of what comes with ASD and if the OP finds it too draining she needs to avoid it. Let's also not forget the effect this probably has on the child with ASD, who is likely to be struggling to make sense of the world and unable to communicate.

I agree with snowleopard. I guess what has happened here is that people like myself without SN children rightly or wrongly make the assumption that SN children can respond well to the boundaries given to other children, or with firmer boundaries. A reference was made during yesterday's hullaballoo to the "naughty chair". I would like to say that this is not a method of child rearing that I ascribe to or approve of. If my child is doing something that I think he shouldn't I ask him firmly not to - usually he stops - believe it or not! Also my son behaves very well when he goes to people's house. So it is a shock for me when I see a child who does not respond/behave. I had a long discussion with DH last night and he also thinks that my friend could be more stringent in imposing boundaries - so you see unless you are in the situation of having a SN child, it is likely that you will think that way.

But yes electra - how the hell do you do that when the child has no language - if he doesn't speak, how can one even know what he understands - of even how he perceives it?

When I started this thread, I was of the belief that my friend was too lax with her child. I have seen her DS in screaming mode at his home, when he is prevented from doing something. I think that she is simply trying so hard not to re-create that scene at my house when she appears not to be curtailing his behaviour. It must be very difficult for her and I see the exasperation and frustration in her face and her body language just looks so weary sometimes.

I guess it is rather like a loss - the loss of the child you thought you had and the stages of accepting that loss are similar to the grieving process. But the ramifications of this potential dx creates ripples that affect everyone my friend is associated with and I feel what was missing from this post yesterday was some empathy for those of us who it also affects. It is a loss for other people too - as I said yesterday sometimes I feel guilty. My DS is actually a very bright child but sometimes I feel I can't share the wonderful things he says or does with my friend, because it seems churlish, given her situation. She absolutely adores my DS and has often said jokingly she wishes he was hers! So can you see where I'm coming from?

another thought, can you not step in and "discipline him" in whatever way is appropriate, given his lack of language? that way giving her a break?

I would also re-iterate the point here that my DS is made to feel bad when he is not. It is not nice for me to see the look of hurt and confusion in his eyes when he is unfairly told not to do something - that he knows is not wrong to do.

I have tried explaining to him that my friend's DS is different and doesn't understand things the way he does. But - hello - my DS is 3! He's a bright boy - but he's not a psychotherapist (yet).

Why does being non-verbal necessarily mean he can't understand language? We don't know that. We don't even know exactly what his dx is or will be.

As for causing a "meltdown worse than the original behaviour" by stopping him from having his own way - well, that could describe my 2-year-old, NT (we think) DS perfectly. It doesn't mean I shouldn't set boundaries. In fact avoiding a meltdown is what leads many parents to end up being totally controlled by their DCs.

I do see what you're saying but firstly, you're assuming this child definitely has asd, and secondly, you're assuming that if he is, it's OK to abandon all efforts at controlling him in everyday situations. As I said, even if it doesn't change his behaviour, it's something she should attempt, a) to see if it helps and b) for the sake of her friend and her friend's DS and their relationship.

Do you really think it's better that she never even attempts to stop him, and risks losing friends (as you recommend the OP just avoid it if she finds it too draining) at this time when she really needs them? Do you really think that just because a child has, or may have, asd, it really is fine for them to just be allowed to mistreat people and property without any effort to limit this? Really? Even though professional carers do attempt to limit it and to help the children to learn? I do understand that it's hard, relentless and fruitless, but does that mean it's pointless?

Snowleopard, you don't know what the op's friend has tried at home already. She may know full well that any attempt to stop him from doing something will result in even more extreme behaviour. If you think about any toddler who is stopped from doing something they want to then it results in a tantrum. With asd children (formally dx'd or not, that's beside the point) those tantrums are a million times worse. I once sat on the side of the road for 2 hours while my dfs had a tantrum because we'd inadvertently walked into a cul de sac and he hated going back on himself. There was no distraction or bribery in the world that could have stopped him, I just had to wait until he came out the other side. I am sure this boy's mum would rather not set off a major meltdown in someone else's house, hence her complete lack of intervention.

It's very simplistic and unrealistic to say 'Well, he is 3. If he breaks something, or uses something eg a pen to deface something, she could take that thing away from him and distract him with another activity. She could also tell him not to.' Those type of strategies just don't work on an ASD child and unless you've had up close and personal experience of dealing with an ASD child I realise how difficult that is to fully understand.

You're so right about how complex it is, it's a horrible situation for everyone involved. I would be fairly certain that the OP's friend has compleely run out of ideas and options for dealing with her son. It's not that she's defeatist witout trying. She will have tried and failed. 'My initial post simply objected to people implying that the child has asd and therefore can't be naughty, can do no wrong, she need not bother with discipline and he should be allowed to wreak havoc'. No one has outright said that, but the reality and intensity of living with ASD means she has probably given up in despair, rather than not bothering.

I have experienced the child whose mum is lovely but wont intervene and put up with the child who just throws everything out of the toy box then proceeds to the next area. and when finished just moans about nothing to do. My poor child just took it and took it until refused to go to that child's own home. We all know how a 3 year old can be forthright so it became embarrassing and the friendship had to end.

Hi again MLY.

You're right, of course it's hard when you habe an NT child to accept that normal boundary-setting may have no effect. But I do still think it's worth attempting in this case. I don't se why she can't take things from him or pick him up and remove him when he's being destructive. After all you said you now don't alllow him upstairs - how are you achieving that? Could you discuss ways with your friend in which you could work together to limit him a bit - eg setting up a safe playroom and moving away breakables, having two drwaing tables, etc.?

However, if she won't or can't do anything due to her exhaustion, you could help your DS by just explaining - "It was not nice for you that X took your pens, but it wasn't your fault, he was just being a bit bossy" or whatever - you don't need to use the word naughty, just something your DS will understand that will help him to see he's not at fault.

This is such a thread to trawl through.

I so agree with snowleopard. I really do.

Elasticbandstand - what I have done with my friend's DS is communicate to him non verbally that I want him to stop, by gently taking his hand and leading him away - or by picking him up and placing him somewhere else, or removing the object he is mishandling - usually for his own safety. That sometimes works, wither he goes off and does something elso but he often does go back and do the same thing again, so I then repeat that behaviour. It's bloody tiring though - remember my son is the opposite.

But I do feel that my friend could try - just a teeny bit and see if it works - especially as she has seen me doing it with her DS and seen it working. But I know children do behave diffently with people other than their parents.

My friend seems scared of her DS - does that sound strange - like she's walking on eggshells - it creates such a tense environment which my DS picks up on and acts into.

Exactly snowleopard - your 2 year old is NT so you can set those kind of boundaries with him. You cannot do the same for a child with ASD because they are neurologically different. It's just a fact. I have a 3 year old NT daughter so I know the differences. I have explained about how you deal with a behaviour needing to depend upon the function of the behaviour.

MLY - I'm afraid no, I still can't see where you're coming from. However, my NT 3 year old gets upset when her older sister doesn't want to play with her and finds it intrusive so I tell her "dd1 isn't like you - she thinks differently and she doesn't understand the world the same way" She understands that so perhaps you could say something like this to your ds? Alternatively find him a NT play date. It's all you can do.

do thye suggest practical parenting courses for ASD?
if so perhaps youand your friend could go together?
or both of you look into how tohelp with ASD, or at least delayed speech.. she is obviously worried about his behaviour too.

MLY, this sentence just made me cry: 'When I started this thread, I was of the belief that my friend was too lax with her child. I have seen her DS in screaming mode at his home, when he is prevented from doing something. I think that she is simply trying so hard not to re-create that scene at my house when she appears not to be curtailing his behaviour. It must be very difficult for her and I see the exasperation and frustration in her face and her body language just looks so weary sometimes.'

You are absolutely spot on with your assessment of her. I think you will be a fantastic friend to her if you can find a way, between you, to deal with this.

I mean POSITIVE parenting courses...