Re: DS is transgender ftm 16 and happy.

[crazyhat]

In reference to the suspended thread titled "DS is transgender ftm 16 and happy." I am the 16 year old, writing it from my mother's point of view, everything I said is true, and my mother and I stand by what I said. See, a few weeks ago she told me that when I first started transitioning, she came to mumsnet for help, and was met by people telling her to not endorse it, and other things that (with hindsight) are blatently transphobic. You are all free to your own opinions, I can't stop that. But I genuinely can't describe the feeling I have towards my body, it's such an extreme disconnect, and I know that transitioning is genuinely the only solution. I am very greatful that my parents support me, unlike many parents, evidently are on here. I'm sorry to anyone who feels decieved, but I was genuinely just doing it to have a sense of understanding of what my parents generation think, and to be brutally honest, it was borderline concerning. I feel sorry for people who's have to hear "advice" from some of you. However I, and my situation, is very much real.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/lgbt_children/3732775-DS-is-transgender-ftm-16-and-happy

Very similar comments to the ones being made here and yet there's no medical or surgical procedures being undertaken so none of the irreversible changes being made which is what, apparently, the concern is on this thread.

It seems like the objection is something to do with gender. So, not concern for the possibility of regret in later life but more the potential impact of the effects of people rejecting gender on everyone else? I don't know, there's something more than concern for the individuals definitely.

I had a look at the first few pages at the op’s posts. ‘Cis girl’ is offensive so I’m glad she was pulled up on that but she says she is female and is female so I have no problem with that.

Don’t think I quite have the interest right now to look at what other posters are saying.

Her language is unusual with the 2/3 thing but I don’t see a problem with a lesbian using they, she’s not claiming to be male.

Actually maybe you’re not meant to discuss other threads on threads, I know you can’t start them but maybe not this either

@crazyhat hope you're OK and everything goes well with whatever you choose to do

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

The backlash was perhaps because OP spouted nonsense like;

Genitals are observed, but sex is assigned because it's a meaning that we add to those genitals.

She needs to get a basic grip on human biology before preaching anything to anyone

hooves

The issue is that gender hurts everyone, it's societal construction in order for the patriarchy to be able to control the means of reproductive production.
It's not an innate feeling that is natural, it's a prison that's inflicted upon us from birth.

No one fits in with gender, not one person.

Young people are being told that gender is natural, and it's them that is wrong. They need to change themselves, either by taking hormones or by becoming non binary. That the issue is with the individual not with the system.

We are saying that actually it's the system that's wrong, woman can be anything at all, dress how they like, be called what they like, do whatever job they like and still be women. The individual is fine, it's the system that needs to change.

Unfortunately we also live is a very sexist world so we need to be name the oppression of women by men under the patriarchy and a HUGE part of that is by being able to name what a woman is.

Sex matters very very little in life but the times it does matter it matters a great deal.

Being non binary lifts that one person out of the gender prison but reinforces it for everyone else.
It's standing on other women's heads so you can breathe.

When I was little I was brought up by radical lesbians who fought every day to say a woman could have short hair, hairy legs, be aggressive, be loud, like sex, love other women and still be a women.

That womanhood is a construct, it is meaningless except for the power we give it, there is no 'feels like a woman' there's just 'being a woman' and with that however you feel. The only way you can feel like a woman is if you're a woman and you have feelings. Woman is a fixed state you either are one or your not.

Ah, so this OP tried to revive the zombie thread last night while they were still posing as a mother:

My DS (now ftm) used to identify as non binary, but they grow out of it, a lot of ftm people were confused and id as nb

I must say, @crazyhat, that's a pretty offensive comment to make to someone who has said they identify as non-binary.

It seems rather hypocritical to assert that you know your gender identity and no-one can possibly know how you feel, while simultaneously suggesting to others that they are mistaken about their own gender identity because you also know best about theirs.

And the idea that NB people are confused and will grow out if it reminds me of the way many bisexual people are treated by the gay community.

I studied feminism a long time ago now under a great, well known lecturer and I’m pretty sure we learnt sex was fixed and gender fluid. You could be a woman and anywhere on the gender spectrum, so wear, do whatever you want.

There may be issue with this I’d be interested to know but at least it didn’t naturally lead to what we have today - the up tick of devastating surgery for teens.

furrytoebean

So it isn't actually concern for someone making an irreversible decision, or imploring everyone to just be themselves then? It's about gender politics and how being yourself impacts on everyone else?

So be yourself, so long as that's ok with everyone else?

When I was little I was brought up by radical lesbians who fought every day to say a woman could have short hair, hairy legs, be aggressive, be loud, like sex, love other women and still be a women.

Amazing, we need more of them.

*So it isn't actually concern for someone making an irreversible decision, or imploring everyone to just be themselves then? It's about gender politics and how being yourself impacts on everyone else?

So be yourself, so long as that's ok with everyone else?*

No I'm very very very concerned about people making irreversible decisions at 16. That's the very first concern.
Then it's the second one. Both things are concerning.

And for your second point no not so as long as it's ok with everyone else, just as long as it doesn't negatively impact anyone else.

When I was little I was brought up by radical lesbians who fought every day to say a woman could have short hair, hairy legs, be aggressive, be loud, like sex, love other women and still be a women.

Did they fight as hard to tell you that women can have long hair, shave their legs, love men, not like sex, be quiet (and all permutations in between) and still be a woman though? Otherwise it sounds like they were trying to impose their view of what a woman is, which wouldn't be right either.

@crazyhat you were quite upset with my questions around sex, orgasms, pain, sexual function, sexual intimacy and more. This, I now realise, is down to your immaturity. Do you think that you should give these aspects more consideration?

You can be anything you want to be, wear anything you want to wear, have any interests you wish, be attracted to anyone all without changing your body.

You are taking drastic steps without the necessary life experience.

Did they fight as hard to tell you that women can have long hair, shave their legs, love men, not like sex, be quiet (and all permutations in between) and still be a woman though? Otherwise it sounds like they were trying to impose their view of what a woman is, which wouldn't be right either.

Yeah they did actually

And for your second point no not so as long as it's ok with everyone else, just as long as it doesn't negatively impact anyone else.

Quite a loaded statement that isn't it? What behaviour doesn't negatively affect someone? Who decides what is negative? The arguments being put forward here, the insistence on calling a trans man a woman - those behaviours negatively impact on others don't they?

I think you’re alienating posters by dragging in posts from another thread in a rather obvious attempt at a “gotcha”, @Hearhoovesthinkzebras.

I’m only checking in occasionally now, because it’s all become a bit tedious and circular.

Hoping it’ll pick up soon, though, and become interesting again.

Did they fight as hard to tell you that women can have long hair, shave their legs, love men, not like sex, be quiet (and all permutations in between) and still be a woman though?

Unnecessary, these are already well established tropes of womanhood.
No one presenting in this way would be questioning their sex nor would any observers.

The arguments being put forward here, the insistence on calling a trans man a woman - those behaviours negatively impact on others don't they?

Well you seem to think so so you challenge it, just as we're challenging the whole trans ideology.

But most people are 'live and let live as long as it's not impacting on other people' and gender critical feminists are pointing out how it affects other women, that it's not just someone acting in a vacuum.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
I would have thought that went without saying that what the poster was saying is that these women set out to embrace all women regardless of their appearance or character.

@FamilyOfAliens

Quite and a spectacular fail at that! The op of that other thread only served to prove how ridiculous this whole thing is.
Very immature, ill-informed and utterly misguided - seems to be a trope all it's own!

I think you’re alienating posters by dragging in posts from another thread in a rather obvious attempt at a “gotcha”

Because I can't understand the arguments. They appear to change with every given situation, sometimes directly opposing each other.

It's argued on here that the only concern is that the op doesn't make an irreversible decision, otherwise be who they want, live how they want, dress how they want BUT!

Then you read other threads where someone is doing exactly what the op here is being implored to do - accepting their sex, but living how they want and that's not right either. Apparently they don't feel female enough for many posters (????) and are basically negatively affecting all women by being themselves.

Sorry if I'm confused but it makes no sense.

I never gave a damn about trans until it starting affecting mine and other women's safety, rights, ability to play in far sports and the insane denial of science and the cult-like nature of forced ideology. Your responses are very selective which supports my idea you are only listening to what you want, only objecting to what you can. Ignoring the rest, are the valid points even posts to you? Can you see and hear them, really?

If something affects me or the well being of my children I give a damn.

But most people are 'live and let live as long as it's not impacting on other people' and gender critical feminists are pointing out how it affects other women, that it's not just someone acting in a vacuum.

So people living in that way need to change then in order to appease gender critical feminists, is that what you're saying?

So what the op is being told - be yourself just don't make irreversible changes - isn't correct then? Because being themselves, without the medical treatment still wouldn't be acceptable to gender critical feminists?