Re: DS is transgender ftm 16 and happy.

[crazyhat]

In reference to the suspended thread titled "DS is transgender ftm 16 and happy." I am the 16 year old, writing it from my mother's point of view, everything I said is true, and my mother and I stand by what I said. See, a few weeks ago she told me that when I first started transitioning, she came to mumsnet for help, and was met by people telling her to not endorse it, and other things that (with hindsight) are blatently transphobic. You are all free to your own opinions, I can't stop that. But I genuinely can't describe the feeling I have towards my body, it's such an extreme disconnect, and I know that transitioning is genuinely the only solution. I am very greatful that my parents support me, unlike many parents, evidently are on here. I'm sorry to anyone who feels decieved, but I was genuinely just doing it to have a sense of understanding of what my parents generation think, and to be brutally honest, it was borderline concerning. I feel sorry for people who's have to hear "advice" from some of you. However I, and my situation, is very much real.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/lgbt_children/3732775-DS-is-transgender-ftm-16-and-happy

You're persistently mixing all medical procedures into one pot Hooves. And in the context of diagnosed depression as well.

Surgery to prevent life threatening disease consequences: reversible contraception: permanent sterilisation: abortion to prevent unwanted parenthood: cosmetic surgery on healthy body parts leading to sterility and in the context of diagnosed depression? these are different things with different requirements for informed consent.

Surgery to prevent life threatening disease consequences: reversible contraception: permanent sterilisation: abortion to prevent unwanted parenthood: cosmetic surgery on healthy body parts leading to sterility and in the context of diagnosed depression? these are different things with different requirements for informed consent.

But it,by law, different age of consent.

By law a 16 year old is legally able to consent or decline medical treatment. If the drs disagree it wont be down to the parent to decide instead just as it wouldn't if it were a 30 year old.

My question is at what age do you accept a person has autonomy to consent, or decline, medical treatment? In the UK it's 16 yet you are all arguing that no one is able to.make such life changing decisions until 25.

So do you want the age of consent raised to 25?

Either we accept that 16 year olds and above have the autonomy to.make decisions or we don't

Well, we don’t, do we?

Lots of things 16 year olds are not allowed to do

Show me a doctor who would sterilise a 16 year old, male or female, because they have decided they don’t want kids.

Where are the tattooists who ink under 18s?

Medical treatment is not in anyway the same as cosmetic surgery or hormones.

If medical treatment is in the patients best interest, and the patient refuses consent, there is nothing the physician can do about it without actually assaulting them and losing their registration. You are asking them to stop treatment, in cosmetic surgery you are asking them to actively do it.

You can’t be naive enough to think that medical professionals won’t do crappy things for money. There are enough “plastic surgery gone bad” shows for that. That’s where the law needs to step in and step up.

For medical treatment if the patient says “I want this” it’s quite normal for the physician to refuse to do it based on risk/benefit (see thread of a few days ago on perforated ulcer). It’s not nice, Especially at end of live and often very upsetting for relatives but we are comparing apples and oranges

“Should oncologists refuse to treat children when treatment is in their best interest”

“Should children and young people be allowed to make life altering decisions when doing nothing is more likely to give better outcomes”

Hearhoovesthinkzebras
Either we accept that 16 year olds and above have the autonomyto makedecisions or we don't

Ffs it is not a simple as that as you know full well! Decision making about irreversible medical procedures is not just restricted by age.

Just one other example : you must be fully aware of the difficulty people and especially child free people have in securing sterilisation?

Patients don't get carte blanche in chosing exactly what procedures they do or don't have. There may be choices they can make but they are limited choices.

So do you want the age of consent raised to 25?

Age of consent for what?

My mind is boggling at the idea transitioning is comparable to an abortion.

Anyway I've a question to those cheerleaders who are all "You go for it".

Let's imagine a young person like OP goes ahead and has life changing and irreversible surgery. 5/6 years down the line they realise it was a mistake. There is nothing they can do about it.

When they ask you why you didn't help them understand the full implications of their decision, what will you say to them?

And if you really believe our concern is transphobic why aren't you a) citing specific examples and b) reporting?

OP, if you are really who you say, look into long-term consequences.

What are the outcomes and life stories of FTM transitioners 10 years older than you?
How about 20 years older?
How about 50 years older?

Having a tattoo isn't medical treatment though.

Whether you like it or not, gender reassignment has been deemed the way to treat gender dysphoria so doctors aren't operating against guidelines or outside of the law.

Should oncologists refuse to treat children when treatment is in their best interest”

If the young person is 16 and refuses treatment then the Dr can't treat them. I believe that even if they are under 16, and are deemed competent, their views will be taken into consideration.

You are all arguing that young people aren't able to assess the magnitude of decisions until they are 25 but can't seem to articulate what decisions or treatments this will affect,nor the rationale behind the differences.

So, one life changing decision you think is ok for a 16 year old to make, but another isn't?

16 isn’t a medical ‘age of consent’ for decisions. Medical professionals work on Gillick competency, which is frequently well under 16.

It's a sad world when a child of 16 wants to go through such extreme life changing surgery, just to fit into a category. Why can't people just be individual, does having a penis make you a better person?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

why won't you accept that 16 year olds are NOT simply allowed to make any medical decision they like. None of us are.

Is that as lesbian? Is that not a question? Coming out is usually referring too sexuality. But if they are straight, the point still applies, just switch out words and about it being historically less acceptable. Stop nit-picking but please do come back if you have an actual argument for them not thoroughly thinking through this life-changing decision. I'd be curious to hear it.

Are TAATs allowed on MN now then? Perhaps the rules have changed.

You can only describe your own subjective experience and we can only describe ours. Most of what you describe as transgenderism we have experienced as women to varying degrees.

However the label you want to put on that feeling of disconnect from ones female body is purely up to the individual. For me, such feelings, I have only come to realise in my 30s, were the result of internalised homophobia and internalised misogyny - particularly around the perceived limitations of being female in a man's world.

It seems either you or you mum or whoever wrote the thread also take for granted these perceived limitations of femaleness with talk of you 'not being girly' and therefore not a girl. The trouble with assuming not being 'girly' means you're not female is that it puts further societal limitations on those of us who already challenge those gendered boundaries whilst fully acknowledging our sexed bodies and it teaches children that colours fluff glitter and football equal sex. Which even at 16 you can surely see is utter tosh?!

One of the things i was going to say before your thread was closed is that at 16 I planned to name my future kids Kurt and Courtney (ask your mum). I won't go into the million reasons that would have been a terrible idea and why i'm so bloody glad i waited until my brain was fully mature (mid twenties) before i took the huge step of having a baby and choosing her a social acceptable name. Do you see what I'm getting at?

If the young person is 16 and refuses treatment then the Dr can't treat them. I believe that even if they are under 16, and are deemed competent, their views will be taken into consideration

It’s not because people with cancer are somehow more mature. It’s because to treat them is an assault if you don’t have consent. You aren’t allowed to assault people just because you are an oncologist. Occasionally to treat or not to treat ends up in the courts, or the mental capacity act or dol will kick in but essentially we treat by consent, not demand on either side.

It’s a bit offensive to call cancer treatment “life changing” when what you mean is “life saving”. Nobody wants cancer treatment for cosmetic or social reasons

You are trying to compare doing something life changing (sterilisation) to not doing something life saving (chemo) without acknowledging that A not consenting is different from consenting (demanding) and B life saving medical treatment is different from elective cosmetic procedures and, if it needs to be pointed out, lots of medical treatment is time dependent.

Whether you like it or not, gender reassignment has been deemed the way to treat gender dysphoria so doctors aren't operating against guidelines or outside of the law.

The medical evidence to support this isn’t there. Watchful waiting shows an 80% desistance rate. The law and the guidelines are based on political, not medical reasons and the tavi is currently being sued because of that. The law, in this case, is an ass.

If it worked, I’d support it. It doesn’t.

Age of consent for what?

Any irreversible life decision

The other thing to remember is that pretty much everyone on this thread was once a stressed out adolescent in search of an identity and meaning.

Many of us now have teenagers of our own so we have the benefit of hindsight as well as the kind of foresight that accumulates as we age. There's a reason tribal cultures retain the wisdom of 'village elders' for guidance and support.

I think it would be refreshing to see some sort of humility in your posts in this regard and an acknowledgement that you simply don't have the millions of years of collective life experience that MN users do.

The brain is not developed until 25, deciding on life-changing surgical transition before then is foolish. Ask Thailand who have a lot of experience in this. Rushing young and/or vulnerable people into this decision is peer pressure. Let them have a bloody good think about it, in theory lengthy consideration should be encouraged by trans if they had welfare at heart. If they didn't subconsciously want too be challenged, they wouldn't be posting here.
And of course, all procedures are not the same and require different levels of understanding. At 11, I got an ear piercing inadequately done at Claire's, I had to go the hospital to get it removed. It hurt a lot and I knew I needed medical treatment. At 16, I got a tattoo illegally that I regret and am currently having laser removal. Oh how I thought I wanted it for life at 16. But because I wanted medical treatment at 11 and knew I needed it, should 11 be the age of consent? I bloody hope that sounds ludicrous to you. I've only ever heard of women in their 20s requesting sterilisation refused. Different procedures require different levels of understanding and brain development.

It’s a bit offensive to call cancer treatment “life changing” when what you mean is “life saving”. Nobody wants cancer treatment for cosmetic or social reasons

I wasn't only talking about cancer treatment and I was also referring to declining certain medical treatments which could well be life changing, as well as choosing to have an abortion, continue with a pregnancy, join the armed forces - all of which are, or have the potential to be, life changing.

You are all arguing that at 16 a young person does not have the maturity to understand fly the implications of a decision that they are undertaking but then you are excepting many situations - you don't include pregnancy or abortion, nor consent or withdrawal of consent for other medical treatments, joining the armed forces and risking disability or death - apparently all of these the immature under 25 year old brain can understand fully and cope with. It appears that the only decision you consider an under 25 year old competent to make is this one. How selective brain maturity is.

And they say it's not internalised misogyny!

I'm very glad you are happy and have supportive parents. So many young people in your situation have the absolute opposite.

Honestly i don't think most teenagers necessarily make good choices around those things either @Hearhoovesthinkzebras and now we have the scientific evidence to support this I hope there are legal professionals pushing for a judicial review in those areas so the contradiction can be resolved in an appropriate way. You have to realise the law and scientific evidence evolve separately - they don't aways keep pace with each other.

Most people would probably agree that pregnancy etc in children is not a good idea. It's also not someth8ng that the child will announce prior to the event. So we try to educate children to prevent it happening, here we are also trying to educate a child to prevent something probably very bad happening.

You also mention joining the army, Since we are talking about a relatively new treatment where the full long term implications have not been established, I would argue that a stronger safeguard than parental consent should be required.

Yeah, don't call us cs thanks. We are women. Same as you.*

Can you really tell someone not to call you something whilst at the same time calling them something you know they don't want?

Surely a "please don't call me c*s" is sufficient?

You don't want to be called c*s. Op doesn't want to be called a woman. How about respecting each other?