Ivf anyone starting stimms next week?

[naty1]

Im starting stimns next week for icsi(dependent on blood test)?
Anyone at the same time want to join.

[Shellster52]

I am like you.
If this were our first IVF, we'd be sitting at home excitedly imagining 6 babies growing in a petri dish.
We now know better that a percent aren't mature and then not all fertilise.
Think it makes the waiting today worse as you are anxious about the result instead of blissfully ignorant.
At least with this realistic attitude, you can at least get excited when you are told you have 4-5 lovely embryos on day 2 instead of expecting a lot more (I hope!)

Yep, I start E2 on day 20 of next cycle.
I have purposely lost track of where I am at this cycle as the count down was killing me.
But now it feels like a long time since I had a period so I have been trying to figure it out.
Think today is day 24.
My cycles are usually 24 - 28 days long so my period could come any time from tomorrow onwards.
Because my periods vary by a few days, when I wake up tomorrow and it hasn't arrived, I quietly hope it's happened naturally. Then the next day and no period and I get more false hopes. Then my period arrives at day 27-28 and crushes all hope.
At least this time I can count down til day 20 and I start IVF... AGAIN!

What trigger shot did you use this cycle?
I am so paranoid after so many IVF failures and I am trying to learn everything I can from you to make my cycle work better.

Not sure if you have any suggestions on this...
At my IVF planning appt, my Dr suggested 300 Puregon dose.
I worried this wasn't enough and she seemed happy to up it to 450.
Now I am thinking perhaps this is too high and isn't going to get more eggs, but just fry the ones that do grow.
Should I drop it down a bit... perhaps 375?

[naty1]

4 embies
1 -2 cell
2 - 4 cell
1 -5 cells
2-4 is normal.
We will grow on till tomorrow- no mention of growing to blast prob as though there are 4 1 fast 1 slow.
12 eggs were mature and 5 fertilised (41%)

So no maturity issue this time :).
Just fertilisation still low.
2011 2/7 28.5%
2014 3/4 75% (but 1 abnormal so 50%)
2014 now 5/12 41.6% but 1 stopped
Looks like its the poor quality sperm as id have had the following at 60% fert
2011 4 fert
2014 5 fert
Now 7-8 fert

[naty1]

So now
1-7 a/b
1-8 a/b
2-6 poor quality

4 - 2-3 cells (these are late fertilisers and include the 1 which yesterday had fert but not done anything)

So 8 now fert up from 5,
we had 1 of the late ones with DD and it was put in to make 2 put back they just hadnt seen it divide so werent sure of it so in theory DD could be that 1 though that is very unlikely im sure they only found it day 3 but not sure how many cells it was, dont think it was as behind as these 2-3 cell ones)

Im going in for ET day to put back the 7 and 8 cells as they are 'clearly the front runners'

Not sure where the 7 and 8 cell came from whether its the 4s or that 5 will have to ask. Hopefully the 7 will be an 8 by ET.
Not feeling particularly hopeful though as have had 6 and 8 cell last time which didnt work though apparently better quality this time as were B and BC last time. With DD it was a AB and BC (late fert one)

[naty1]

By transfer they were 8 cell and 10 cell.
The others will grow on until day 5 and see where they are though not looking good 4 are 'atypically' fert as they didnt see it. So these are mostly a day behind

[Shellster52]

naty this is fantastic news!
You have two top notch 7 and 8 cell embryos inside you!
I hope at least one of the 2 6 cells makes it to day 5 to take some of the pressure off this cycle.
But it sounds very promising for this cycle having not one but two great embryos inside.
Are you ready for twins?!?!

We were talking about hoping for 6 mature eggs but you got 12!
Perhaps the follicles can be a bit smaller to still produce a mature egg on the FSH alone without the LH added in.
Giving me confidence in my next IVF plan to also start on FSH alone.

So do you just do a test at home or do you have to go in for a blood test?
When is your official test date?

This really sounds hopeful for you.
It's been so lovely chatting to you on this thread.
I like the smaller threads as I find your post can get a bit overlooked on the bigger threads and you don't really feel the same support.
I am going to miss you when you get your BFP!
I wish I was doing my IVF now too.
My period should arrive any day and then I can count down til day 20 when I can start my estrogen and feel like it's starting to happen.

PS. Have you heard from Suzy anywhere else on Mumsnet?
I wonder how she is getting on.

[naty1]

Havent seen suzy around.

Not sure why more mature this time.
I think its about follicle sizes.
Ive had
420mm
218
And 5 fertilised (4 properly)
The smaller ones didnt fert straight away. (Think they must have been immature slightly.)

This mirrors ivf with DD
1 20mm
Not sure other sizes but only 1 fert despite 7 mature
I would guess the others were 16-17

,sizes ivf 2
218
315
Only 4 mature 2 fert
So think 15s can be mature 50% maybe but they dont fert for me. In fact i suspect only my 20mm + fert on correct day to make ab grade. 18s also can fert but not many have maybe 3. They make b and b/c grades and grow more slowly 6 cell day 3.
Others seem to fert next day when they mature.
Not sure of the effect of gonal f it may be to make them less likely to be immature (though that could be the coasting as smaller ones will have stopped growing)
Wondering now if there was 2 20s and say 2 19/18 and say 2 16s
As they said 6 should def be mature but then quickly said size and where they should be at end of that day/before trigger. Which would explain the 6 cell ones with fragmentation.
Think i just have maturation issue even if they are 'mature'.
I should be triggered at 22mm though dont know when i would be overmature but cant get there due to e2.
Ive read places trigger at 18mm to get 18-15mm and bigger doesnt help

[naty1]

Ive looked id written 4 20s 2 17s
So i think those are what fert and 1 of the 17 didnt.
Think it shows how lazy cons are blaming it on sperm for low fert but wouldnt expect it to be so clearly the sizes.

[Shellster52]

I have read that the largest follicle/s often contain the best egg.
This makes perfect sense since in a natural cycle, your body chooses the one best egg which it ovulates and allows the others to die away
So the largest follicle might have the best egg not just because it's the most mature follicle, but because your body has already determined which egg was the strongest and chose to grow that one/those couple the biggest.

At both of my two clinics, I have always received a phone call the day after egg collection to say how many have fertilised.
Ive never received an update later that more have fertilised.
I have never heard of this from any other woman on Mumsnet either.
You are the only one - and it has happened to you twice.
I wonder why? Perhaps the rest of the clinics discard them after 24 hours and yours is the only clinic that keeps them?

With your IVF 2, was it a day 2 transfer of a 4 and 6 cell?
Does it make you any more confident this round with a day 3 transfer of an 8 and 10 cell, knowing you have seen them advance to that bit further ahead?

As for me, today is day 27 of my cycle.
My cycles are usually between 24 to 27 days long so the fact that I am today day 27 without a period in sight is getting my hopes up I could be pregnant naturally.
But in the past I have had some cycles where I have not ovulated and my cycle has been from 37 to 48 days long.
I hope that isn't the case this cycle.
I just want my period to come so I can start counting down until day 20 when I start the estrogen. If this is going to be a non ovulating 45 day long cycle, its just making my next IVF seem even further away.

[naty1]

Ivf 2 was a d3 8 cell b grade and 6 cell b/c grade.

The other 2
1 arrested :(
1 is a morula :(. :(
As day 5 thats not good and they said they wont freeze.
I asked them to take a look tomorrow which they agreed reluctantly.
I then said what about the other ones and they hadnt bothered to look because as they hadnt been seen fertilising they wont freeze. Which is not what embryologist said. She just said ok we will let them keep growing (probably knowing they wont get there as they are 2 days behind)

It makes me realise that ivf #2 with the 1 6 cell was unlikely to work as 1/2 have arrested this time and the other is only a morula which i think could be 10-30 cells so may only have another 4 cells on 2 days.
Its significantly behind considering i had 1 at 10 cells day 3.
Im thinking they must be injecting the eggs too soon as they are collected >11:30 and they need to wait a couple of hours to icsi them.

Oh well embryiologist said tge 2 werent good quality 6 cells

[naty1]

What fertilisations and cell numbers have you had on your cycles?

Im worried reading on long protocol you need some lh for egg quality.
And that bad sperm can cause low fertilisation. Or bad eggs. Eggs do the division up to 6-8 cells then sperm.
Hard to be positive when my 6&8 didnt work last time. Its all luck.

[naty1]

All have arrested. :(
The 6 cell became an early morula but no further.
So all quite slow.
Some of the 0pn and 1pn grew a couple more cells.
So quite scary about egg/sperm quality. Embriologist said its not activation as they do fert.
It does make me think they keep quiet about how low the chances with say 6 cell ones are but then they were also prettyfragmented.
Just hoping these 2 make it.

[Shellster52]

Fertilisation and cell numbers on my cycles
IVF1
1 egg collected
1 egg mature
1 egg fertilised.
Disintegrated before day 2 transfer

IVF 2 - Cancelled

IVF 3
5 eggs collected
4 eggs mature
3 eggs fertilised.
1 embryo abnormal
2 embryos transferred at day 2. Both 2 cells so not great quality.

IVF 4
4 eggs collected.
3 eggs mature
1 egg fertilised
1 embryo transferred at day 2. 4 cells.

IVF 5 - Cancelled.

IVF 6 - Cancelled

IVF 7
5 eggs collected
5 eggs mature
2 eggs broke apart with ICSI
1 egg didn't fertilise
2 eggs did fertilise but 1 was abnormal, leaving one embryo.
My lone embryo was 10 cells at day 3 and a morula at day 4.
Got a call morning of day 5 when I was about to leave home for transfer that it had arrested.

IVF 8
4 eggs collected-lots more follicles this time but issue with injecting trigger
1 egg mature
1 embryo
Arrested the morning of day 3 transfer - never round out how many cells before arrest.

It seems that getting them from morula to blast must be the most complex part for the embryo as that's were they seem to go wrong.
Yours was only 6 cells at day 3 so I guess that's an indication that it perhaps wasn't strong enough anyway, but I had one top quality embryo in IVF 7 that still didn't make it to blast. I have read somewhere that a high percentage make it from fertilisation to day 3. But then only a smaller percentage make it from day 3 to day 5. (Can't remember exact figures).

Then again, you hear so many stories of women who do have embryos make it to day 5 blast, yet they still don't implant. There's just no guarantees.

I am on day 2 of my cycle so I will start my estrogen tablets on day 20 in prep for IVF next cycle. Reading all the stories (and failures) of women going through IVF on here at the moment has me a bit hesitant about putting myself through this emotional torture again.

[Shellster52]

Oh, note that with my IVF 7, two eggs broke apart with ICSI.
This is because I didn't have many follicles so they let the two bigger follicles grow over 20mm so a couple of smaller ones could catch up.
My IVF Dr said that the eggs that broke apart would more than likely have come from the larger follicles as eggs from very mature follicles don't withstand the ICSI injection very well.

Just thought I would mention it as I know you have mentioned you wish you could grow some of your follicles a bit bigger - but this may give you some reassurance that it was a good thing they didn't because the eggs are more likely to break apart with ICSI.

[naty1]

Every cycle has different numbers.
You had a good chance i would think where you put the 2 back.
I agree its worrying even with blasts people arent successful so where we arent getting near having 4 good ones to choose the best blast from its concerning.
Its a pity about needing icsi as i dont think its doing our eggs much good. And they need to be mature first etc.
Feeling a little annoyed with DP as in all the fertility stuff though i wanted him to he never lost weight (bmi 30) now reading it affects icsi success. I wish our 1st consultant had told him to try to get around 25bmi. It sort of feels i go through all this but if he lost weight we may have been more successful. (Noting DBil is very slim.)
I find it interesting its not mentioned, unlike female bmi which has to be under 30 on nhs. Though i guess its less conclusive.
Been reading about the 3pn and 1pn embryos it seems some of these can be normal it just depends.
The 3pn can be like xxx or xxy etc
And 1pn x etc
But they could be normal,really 2pn but developing asynchronously so showing the pn at different times.
3pn in ivf could be 2 sperm. But not icsi so that could be the egg not chucking out 1/2 its dna to a polar body.

[naty1]

Worried as i have upset stomach like failed cycle. I thought tge progesterone was raising my blood sugar too much as i took it at6pm, ate at maybe 5:30. And was ill 7:30. Met can cause these issues but the slow release has been fine for ages. Possibly hcg wearing off :(
I asked dr sher about my strange ivf cycles. He said it was likely the protocol. Trigger etc. his theory is ovitrel isnt enough dose. Also why did i coast as i didnt say i dont think total follicles. Makes me wonder if no of follicles wasnt enough to need coasting.

[Shellster52]

Yes, I have spent so long frustrated at DH for being overweight.
I did read one study where they took detailed info of what both men and women ate in the lead up to IVF, and the healthier both ate, the more likely the IVF was successful.
Very frustrating watching them eat crap - like they are directly sabotaging our dream.
My husband has started going to the gym twice a week.
Not sure where my couch potato husband found this motivation but hoping it helps for next IVF.

I can imagine you being worried if you are having the same symptom of a failed cycle.
At least an upset stomach in absolutely nothing related to any positive or negative pregnancy symptom so could just be that you have a bit of an upset stomach and nothing at all related.
But I know it's hard not to worry.
From what I've read, the embryos normally implant around day 6 so that would be Monday, 27th - so hopefully they are attaching themselves as we speak.

Going through this cycle with you is like re-living my own emotions from my cycles.
Makes me think I'm mad doing it again going through the IVF turmoil.
But if I don't, I have no baby and that upsets me more.
I would just really love to have a few embryos that make it to day 5.
I MUST stick at this high protein low carb diet (a little pep talk to myself here!)

[naty1]

Feeling anxious. Not going to test this time will see if i start the spotting on day 12 again. Also want to hang onto hope as long as possible.

Was reading a site with list of bfps from very low sperm couples. Most had got bfp first time trying icsi and high fertilisation rates with going to blast. So it seems my low fert rate is unusual and not likely to be caused by the sperm. Of course this was just the successful cycles though or maybe 2 with first unsuccessful.
Even the TESE or whatever retrieval was getting more fertilisation.
I cant see it being justvthe trigger of ovidrel would never be used. Of course DSis had 2 frosties just changing to pregnyl.
2+3+8 =13 fert total
1+2+4=7 normal
8+4+12=24 mature
54% fert over the 3 cycles
But only 29% normal fert
So if if had the 70% fertilised which they say is usual id have around 17 so an extra 10.
Also i think dsis didnt have a higher fert rate with pregnyl just fewer arrested.

[Shellster52]

Yes, you seem to get lots of follicles and off to a great start, but then less mature eggs - 7, then 4 and then 12. 23 mature eggs in total sounds like a great number and you would definitely not think it unreasonable to conceive two children from 23 mature eggs. But things just seem to go a bit downhill from there, not all fertilize, then not all are great quality. It's the same story with me.

So I guess you would expect your period early next week? The last few days are often the longest. I hope you have something nice planned for the weekend to get you through. Was your daughter a day 3 transfer?

[naty1]

More upset stomach. Tested blood sugar after and it was 3.9 which is the lowest ive seen on me. This was a fasting level so i drank some apple juice, had breakfast and hopefully that will sort it.
I may only have 1000 metformin today as maybe i dont need as much with the progesterone. (Have been taking 1500 for 6m with no issues) i know i didnt eat much tea last night -some crackers. Not sure what i ate the other time, but both times i have walked around for about 2 hrs or more the day before)

Yes DD was a 3dt. Almost exactly 3yrs ago.

Failed cycle i spotted 12dpo (tomorrow- sat) so really crossing my fingers that doesnt happen again.i do have luteal phase defect though. I think it would be easier if spotting as always a good or bad thing - it seems to be either.

[Shellster52]

Inconceivable spotted a day or two before her period was due on the other thread and I immediately concluded her FET had failed. I assumed if you have implantation spotting, it would occur at day 6-7 of embryos life when the embryo is beginning to implant - not a day or two before period is due. But she got her BFP. I never spotted with my son so I would panic if I saw blood after a transfer. Although I never usually get spotting - I just wake up to my period. So perhaps if I spot instead, I will take it as a good sign. After all my bad luck, I will just be amazed if I can make it to a day 5 transfer.

Must be added stress for you worrying you are doing the right medication dosing with your thyroid issues and taking Metformin.

So are you waiting until a certain day to test or just waiting for period to not show up?

[naty1]

Yes it is worrying about all the meds affecting each other.
I wont test until i get through the next 2 days without spotting. (It started around evening last time)
Yea ive seen a couple of people spot and get bfp, like you though my bfp i didnt.
Low blood sugar again this morning 3.4.
I think im taking cyclogest at 6am due to clock change, levo 7:30 and sleeping between, so then im tired sleeping till 9am and eating (well couldnt eat till 8:30 anyway -hr after levo. Prog makes me hotter, levo speeds up metabolism and the result is low blood sugar.
Worrying about the ivf i dont go back to sleep for about an hr.
Despite low reading today i dont have upset stomach yet.

[Shellster52]

Well by now, the embryo/s would either be implanted or they won't, so I don't think you have to worry about a slight change in sleep habits affecting things. What is Levo and what is it for?

As I opened up the infertility threads, I saw you had started one about spotting. Hope you are okay.

[naty1]

Sorry levothyroxine for my thyroid.
The other threads i want to know if bleeding always starts on the same day with failed cycles.
I guess its just a waiting game until wed (otd ).
I think it starts to go faster when youre doing a cycle. The wait to start and the 2ww are the worst bits.

[Shellster52]

When I saw your other thread I panicked you were bleeding again.
But after I typed on this thread I read your post on your other thread and felt reassured for you that you were just asking about if you started bleeding and it hadn't actually happened.

So Sat was 12DPO when you started bleeding which I assume didn't happen so that's a good start. And no mention of bleeding when you posted Sunday either. It's Monday here but you are 11 hours behind. So when I see your next post and no sign of blood, surely that must be a great sign.

Totally agree about the waiting.
I think the 2ww is the longest wait of all... especially the last few days you are now enduring.

[naty1]

Tested this morning 14dpo -BFP (well more of a thin line really using bright orange wee, so hopefully thats ok.)
Fingers crossed no spotting yet. OTD isnt till wed so ill keep going.
Got a bit stressed as i know i need a thyroxine increased dose asap (to avoid miscarriage) but gp earliest blood test is wed 4pm then another x days they said 7-10 for results though i know i have got them back in 4 but that is easily next week -wk5 when baby needs more.
So i called clinic to see if they would test as they get back same day. But they said to just increase 25mg per day. Easy. Which i have started today.
Hopefully gp will suggest a test when i have telephone appt tomorrow.
Clinic also said test every 3 mths when they know its so important to baby/miscarriage risk in 1st trimester.
Lets just hope its not too much as i do have some thyroid function

I really had no different symptoms to Jan in this 2ww except
No spotting (touchwood)
Had enhanced sense of smell from 5dpo, which is too soon for anything (i could smell celery -which i dont like from 200m away.
DD said a few days ago 'whats in your tummy mummy' touching it.
Possible temperature. Maybe sore nipples but most things are the cyclogest.
Less upset stomach

So nothing conclusive as the spotting could be thyroid related. There is no way i would know on a natural try especially with irregular cycles

Its sad the stressing doesnt end just a different thing to worry about.
Wonder if it was the 8/10 cell