Archie Battersebee case-thread 2

[whynotwhatknot]

ongoing from previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4573803-archie-battersbee-case?page=40

Actions of a desperate, hurt, wounded mother.

Who knows how any of us would react/behave if it was one of our children. Rationale goes totally out of the window, all you can focus on is saving your child.

NHS have been known to make mistakes in the past, not saying in this tragic case, but it has happened before.

I don’t know. I’m pretty sure I would be posting about being an asshole and not caring.

Wouldn’t be posting. Wouldn’t be posting!!

@Crazycatlady83
On the FB Dignity for All page, they have all interview transcripts etc and his mum has said previously she found him hanging from banister, the online thing is another figment of her imagination/ detachment from reality. TikTok stated this has never been on their platform.

3 weeks is a lot longer than a lot of people get to come to terms with somebody dying.

As a trauma surgeon, I see and deal with these sort of things on a weekly basis, not normally children, but, frequently healthy, well people going about their lives or their jobs when a completely unexpected incident may change everything in a second.

A lot of how the families cope, is determined in the first minutes to hours - how much hope vs realism is painted for the distraught relatives, how much of the information they actually hold onto to.

We can never know of course exactly what was said - but I suspect if the first conversation was ' we think his brain has already died, but will need a few days to be sure, use that time to come to terms and say good bye' we may be in a different place now.

Of course, that may have been the conversation, and this and the Alfie / Charlie cases may have been demonstrations of one extreme end of a grief reaction.

I did some research on this because I was interested; and yes, it seems that the police must investigate possible suicides and contested deaths. And, yes, there will be an inquest for the same reason. No-one of course can pre-empt the verdict (which could end up being 'misadventure').

Now that the family has just thrown 'murder by hospital' into the mix, I imagine those investigations will have to be very thorough indeed. There may well be interested parties who will seek representation or a seat at the inquest table, such as the NHS Trust, the hospital staff (potentially as individuals, or a group via their union), and any accused online company.

Could be big and messy. Lots of lawyers.

I was going to say something along those lines but thought better not. But you're right tbh

I feel pretty certain I would not be spending time on social media threatening the hospital and medical staff I was planning to be an asshole as my child's treatment was being withdrawn.

Precisely. I also wouldn't be taking photos of my child like that, nor posing next to his body beaming away. To me they aren't the actions of a desperate wounded mother.

My son at a few weeks old had sepsis. I took a few pics and then after deleted all but one because it was so traumatic seeing them. The only one I kept was before it kicked off and he only had a cannula, I save it for sharing for sepsis awareness due to his skin being so clear in it.

I couldn't imagine every horrible detail being captured and shared so publically. You could never escape it when you've done as HD has

I also think that family members need to take care not to stray into the territories of defamation and harrasment.

A poster above mentioned libel. I've though the threshold was reached a couple of times now, but everybody is bending over backwards to BeKind. There comes a point though where reasonable behaviour will be expected and required, even in tragic circumstances.

'Murder' allegations and the same-day publication of names of staff would be the tipping point for me if I worked there.

I genuinely can't believe that statement they've issued.

They simply haven't listened have they? Their understanding of anything going on is awful. The Trust have set out a very compassionate removal of life support, allowing the family time to hold Archie and be with him at the end. They're slowly going to withdraw ventilation and other meds throughout the day not just unhook him and instantly declare time of death.

There is no 'palliative care' for someone who is already gone. It was simply stated as it was the kindest way for the trust to describe the end.

The family have had a lot more time than many other families who have been through the same. If they'd been more willing to listen and cooperate at the start, court could have been avoided and they could have had the time to come to terms before a mutually agreed date reached via compromise. I'm willing to guess had they been onboard they hospital would have allowed a week or two for them to process then arranged a very peaceful passing. However, I accept that may not have been possible.

As for that meme ☹️ Just why? Why would you actively set out to waste those final precious moments of your child's life. They need to be careful because Archie is the hospital's priority along with all of the other very sick children and their families. If Hollie and the rest start causing havoc they will be removed and then no one will be with that poor little boy when he finally rests. I just don't get it.

I would imagine there would be a Post Mortem ( if I was in the parents' position I would request one)
There's the question about neck injury when he was released from his hanging site
Any if they were able to see the damage to his brain stem and the coning they might accept that the damage was done a long while ago annd there was really no chance of him opening his eyes let alone leading anything that would be classed as a viable life .

There are loads of 'not quite adding up'
The ligature - was it a bag tie or a dressing gown cord ? (Both have been mentioned)
Was she in the house charging and phoning. Or as in one report , came home to find him ( hence the was it the 3 minutes/40 minutes)
The level of detail about the rabbit

Examination of his phone will show if he was filming ( which if it was an online challenge , you'd think he would be)

Hollie stated he was anxious and had phone calls from school but she said she spoke to him and it was more an "Arch stop mucking about" type of outcome
He was waiting on a new coat to arrive
And he'd done the 'hold your beath till you pass out' challenges ( you;d start breathing again though unless there was an obstruction ?)

If . (and at the moment theres no evidence he tried to take his own life , but it does seem more likely TBH) he attempted to take his own life , that is not a crime . But it would be investigated .

It would be so very difficult for her to accept that her son had taken his own life but she must have some suspicion in the back of her mind ? To accept that he wasn't as happy as she thought or as joined at the hip close that she thought ?
Maybe she feels with his religious beliefs ( again lots of speculation as this was brought up after he was injured ) he wouldn't do this ?
And ( IMO ,) she wants him to die of natural cause - cardiac arrest- at his own hand , his body giving up . Rather than someone giving the consent to switch off ( in her view murder / execute him)
His online name was an odd choice for a 12yo .

Sorry, but what was his online name?

Sometimes behaviour worsens as they know the Health care team won’t retaliate - rightly so- but tolerance is taken advantage of.

It's statements like this that show how evident it is the CLC are leading dance and battered we through this.

This isn't the words of a bereaved mum struggling to cope with what we are led to believe happened but rather a calculated statement.

As an aside I've watched the video (1.52 secs long) of the person saying breath in and out and stop etc.
Does anyone know who it is talking and what's those sounds are that sound like breathing?

I can see why dance buys into what is being told to her.

As for that meme ☹️ Just why? Why would you actively set out to waste those final precious moments of your child's life. They need to be careful because Archie is the hospital's priority along with all of the other very sick children and their families. If Hollie and the rest start causing havoc they will be removed and then no one will be with that poor little boy when he finally rests. I just don't get it.

It worries me she'll get herself removed from the withdrawal of life support process and that'll only do more to feed her narrative and spiral her MH further out of control.

@itsgettingweird it's a breathing YouTube video
The talking and breathing are on that, none of it is Archie

Were the videoes compromising the privacy of any other patients or their families or members of staff?
Or any security in place which might make it easier for someone to gain access

I'm in the US so completely familiar with insurance companies. And apologies for the slight derailing to clarify.

Insurance companies do not 'charge' for services, they pay for them (or not). My assumption is that the insurance company was billed by the hospital for those days between certification for donation and the (pardon my frankness) 'harvesting' of the organs and has refused to pay for them.

As a general rule hospitals do not charge for expenses in connection with organ donation, including the time needed to harvest the organs. This is an issue that I've been involved with as a friend of the family of the donor. From the moment the family signed the donation paperwork, the facility 'took over' and nothing further was charged by the facility to the donor's account.

I think the mother's argument should be with the hospital or provider that accepted the donation, not the insurance company. It's situations like these that deter families from agreeing to donation.

As far as poor Archie, I pity the poor mother and while I can understand her anguish, but it sounds as if it is 'time'. It also sounds as if she doesn't have people near and dear to her who are speaking the truth to her and that's a shame.

I believe that whenever a child dies in "unnatural circumstances" there has to be a post-mortem and full investigation. I hope his passing tomorrow is as peaceful as it can be.

A lot of how the families cope, is determined in the first minutes to hours - how much hope vs realism is painted for the distraught relatives, how much of the information they actually hold onto to.

Very very true @FixTheBone , I think the fact he was transferred to Royal London to potentially have surgery that ended up not happening, has played into this.

It's po

Firstly, “giving Archie's loved ones time to come to terms with the decision” is precisely what the Trust has refused to do. The Trust has been dragging us as a family through the courts at a breakneck speed from 27 April till the final decision of the Supreme Court this Thursday evening.

The Trust started the legal action, but every hearing after the Arbuthnot decisions has been instigated by the parents. So how have they been dragged through the courts?

The urgent application to the UN had to be prepared overnight by our legal team and submitted Friday morning.

No, it didn't. The Supreme Court hearing was about appealing against the CA decision, not about appealing to the UN. Even if the lawyers felt they had to wait for that decision, they must have know which way it was going to go, so if they hadn't already prepared their next step, more fool them. And no-one forced them to make a hopeless application to the UN anyway.

Try again....

It's possible that's a factor, however I think the real tipping point comes when the relationship between the hospital and parents has broken down to the extent the courts get involved.

At that point it has become a very partisan situation where it's "us vs them" and as seen in other cases the family surround themselves with supporters and the opportunity for "neutral" intervention is lost.

As soon as this dynamic has been established I feel the damage is done, the gloves are off and the parents just double down irrespective of the medical evidence, hoisted by the petard of their previous rhetoric that cannot be unsaid and in doing so often undermine public support through increasingly contentious claims/actions/statements.

Upshot is it's very sad that it comes to this point.