Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

Support for israel is Diminishing.

I've done it again. Apologies.

London. When George Galloway refers to 'israel free' he is not referring to the people of the Jewish faith he is referring to the zionists who control israel. A whole lot of people believe there is a very big difference between the two. Especially the Orthodox Jews.

JFR please do not try to derail this thread by talking about the other busy or not so busy threads about the middle east on mumsnet.

We have had so many posters on here who appear and have tried to derail the topics by deflection and brought up Syria, Iraq etc etc. all because they do not want there to be criticism of Israel. Then they disappear.

I find that picture posted a bit upthread to be pretty racist and abhorrent about 'Arabs make us kill their children'. Not many views expressed about thinly veiled Islamophobia which the Israeli apologists churn out so readily. The Pro Palestinians attack Israeli policy not its predominant religion. The israeli apologists equate palestinians as Arabs, Arabs as muslims, muslims as terrorists (hamas, Isis, Al Qaeda) and therefore the Palestinian children become a legitimate target as that picture points out above. It is so vile, so dehumanising.
JFR, what would you do if it was your child killed for being who he/she was?

Then the killer turned to you and said that it was your fault for being there, you made him kill? You are responsible.

It is so evil yet the world likes to make it more 'complex' than it is to stop the perpetrator from getting the blame and the victim gets all the blame and throw in a few cries of anti-semitism, a few cries of terrorism when most people acknowledge that it wasn't, people get drawn into arguments and the deaths continue. Where is the justice for that child?

Well there's certainly been no truce on Mumsnet. This thread has turned vicious in the past 24 hours.

I am sad again to make the point that one racist should not condemn the whole country. One idiot in a revolting t-shirt says nothing about the nation as a whole. Just as Nick Griffin of BNP does not speak for Britain. And indeed Middleagedwino does not speak for the anti-Israel voice on this thread (that video link...wtf??)

Middleagedwino - you realise, don't you, that when you talk about Orthodox Jews you mean a group of no more than 50 in London who are considered outcasts even by other non-Zionist ultra orthodox. Also that you might find their views on other subjects rather distressing.

I am also sad that the anti-Israel voice here finds debate with those who hold a different view so unwelcome.
Would you prefer to start a thread with no dissent? Wouldn't be much of a discussion.
If we want Israel and Hamas to get round a table, is it too much to ask to listen to the other side of the argument? Why come on this thread if you're just going to boast about not reading any posts that challenge your world view?

well done Russell Brand

If anyone can find the Joan rivers boycott petition, i would love to sign.

Here's a link to the Joan Rivers petitin. What a disgusting woman.

www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/joan-rivers-you-are-not-welcome-to-our-towns-and-cities?share_id=aBLTJovvNQ&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition

sergeantmajor ....... I agree with your your last few posts re the myopia on these mega threads, so much so, I might look in on the last one every few days hoping to see some balance - and can't believe the 'banter', almost looking to wind each other up into an anti Israeli frenzy, so move on.

Today I couldn't help but comment earlier, as the 'snapshot' was so bad, I would be surprised if the majority of Mumsnet posters bothered to read it any more.

Unfortunately I worked out years ago when visiting many countries in the Gulf and meeting well educated Palestinians working there, this hatred runs too deep for any one generation and leader to resolve it, and Hamas are not the ones to help the peace protest e.g. offering to trade two dead Israeli soldiers bodies for access to their own sea port to help upgrade their own war effort.

Forget how dumb in strategic value the trade off looks to israel, if relations could be civilized in any way, the bodies of those soldiers would have been returned before now.

*petition

Sergeant I've been on the thread from the beginning and I welcome anti Israel posters. I've found the links and information, insights and debate really useful.

I have even found myself agreeing with points they have made. It is essential that this debate continues. Here and in the middle east.

Thanks runes for the link petition, have signed, although when it comes to Joan Rivers her whole celebrity has rested on saying outrageous ridiculous things that very few people agree with, so shes a bit of a non entitiy really.

somewheresafe, I'm assuming you meant pro-Israel in your last post.

I think your previous post in which you stated that "The biggest evil there [in the Middle East] at the moment is nutty and his hand of murderers."

I am genuinely at a loss to see how you could think that. I can understand the following positions:

• Netanyahu is evil; or
• There's no point comparing evils, it's just whataboutery

But if you are going to compare evils, I cannot understand how anyone could look at the ME and say that Netanyahu is the worst of the lot. Worse than Assad? Worse than ISIS/ISIL? Worse than the clitoral infibulators of Egypt?

This position just doesn't make sense to me.

Middleagedwino Thu 14-Aug-14 15:24:30
"When George Galloway refers to 'israel free' he is not referring to the people of the Jewish faith he is referring to the zionists who control israel."

Why are you putting words in his mouth? He's not referring to either. Whatever else one thinks of George, he is a perfectly clear speaker. He said:
"We don't want any Israeli goods. We don't want any Israeli services. We don't want any Israeli academics. We don't even want any Israeli tourists."

As for the video you posted. A video entitled "Synagogue of Satan" is obviously, avowedly antisemitic. What other possible interpretation is there?

This is potentially a stupid question and I should really have asked it ages ago, but what are people talking about when they say 'Zionist'? As far as I was aware a Zionist is a Jewish person who believes that the State of Israel should exist as a primarily Jewish state - looking it up it seems that that's the basic definition but it comes in various forms, as you'd expect. So when people describe themselves or others as 'anti-Zionist', are you saying you/they're against the existence of Israel, against its existence as a Jewish state, against one particular type of Zionism, or what? Just wondering because it's come up a couple of times in recent posts and I haven't been sure what people have meant by it.

Middleagedwino "The 'more of them' I was referring to, were the ones who worship power, money and their own sense of self importance. The ones who do not think twice about removing a whole race of people and feel nothing but elation. " and you say that the "them" you are referring to are Zionists, not Jews.

Zionists support a nation for the Jewish people in the land that is now known as Israel. Have a look around, there are 22 Arab nations, there are 49 Muslim majority nations. But you seem to object to there being one sliver of land for the Jews.

Why would Jewish nationalism have anything to do with worshipping money? I can't see the connection. Oh, unless you are resurrecting the old Jews as money-lovers insult. But if it's Jewish nationalists (aka Zionists), is that all right then?

Sergeant Major, I don't think you are allowed to challenge Anti-Semitism on this thread. It's derailing, you see.

Honeybadger, You called me a hasboro troll. You apologised. I accepted. Then you imply that I am justifying the murdering of the vulnerable.

Please tell me, how on earth did you reach that conclusion? I'm really interested.

When I say Zionist, I am thinking of your first definition - someone who believes in the right to exist of the Jewish state of Israel.

Many people, use the phrase zionist, like middleagedwino, so they can say shit about jews, without being accused of being anti-Semitic.

Others may use Jews and Zionists interchangeably, by habit, I think. I saw a poster on another thread (who I always find sensible and enlightening), say that she has to remind herself not to write 'Jews' and to write 'Zionists' instead!

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are fans of Netanyahu.

goldvelvet - you asked me to explain my post from yesterday about boycotts and ancient anti-semitic memes.

If you want to boycott Israeli goods as a means of protest or influence, that is your prerogative. But here is some background...

There's a long history of anti-Jewish boycotts, stretching back two hundred years to when the Jews were given equal rights in Europe (boycotts in Ireland, Poland, Hungary, Austria, Russia, USA, Palestine...)

During the Nazi years, Jewish businesses were daubed with yellow paint and slogans such as "Geh nach Palästina! ("Go to Palestine!"). The boycott was based on race, not religion, applying even to Christians with a Jewish grandparent.

So you can see why yellow stickers being placed on Israeli goods resonates. Especially as those Israeli companies could well be fully staffed by hippy peaceniks who protest against all war. No matter, the nation as a whole is condemned.

The thing is, boycotts can be effective tools in many instances. But a nation weighs its very survival against a drop in GDP, it acts accordingly.

'What bothers me most is not that Jews kill our children, but that they force us to kill theirs'

Is this statement racist or anti-semitic?

(Disclaimer: the above are not my views - i find it abhorrent)

I saw the original statement and I'm glad you challenged it, Yruapita.

Whatever way round, it's horrible and racist.

sergeantmajor Thu 14-Aug-14 17:23:59
So you can see why yellow stickers being placed on Israeli goods resonates

I have seen no-one suggesting yellow stickers, on this thread or anywhere else.

If I do, I'll suggest they use a different colour.

Fortunately I won't be boycotting Jewish goods, whatever they might be. I will, however, be boycotting Israeli goods.
I've not knowingly bought anything Israeli for years as it is, anyway.

Yellow stickers??? The only ones I've seen are red, green, white and black.

As for 'Arabs' forcing their children to be killed- the woman who said that is clearly deeply racist and to quote her is rather peculiar I would have thought.

As for Zionist, I guess I've been using it as a sort of shorthand, because 'anti the siege, occupation and settlements and the oppression by force and stealth of Palestine by the government and army of Israel and those who support it and aid and enable it, even though I accept the existence of Israel, have nothing whatsoever against the religion or ethnicity of ANY people, and long to see a peaceful one or two state solution' is rather a mouthful even as an acronym. But as Mark Regev says, let's be clear.