OMFG is anyone watching Newsnight.

[carernotasaint]

Its about FGM. How can they fucking to this to girls and women. One girl was only three when it happened. MY GOD.

morloth, I do not doubt that male circumsision is painful and barbaric, but to compare it to FGM, where in some cases the clitoris is actually removed, and the labia sewn up, is.....not comparable.

I wasn't aware that baby boys were born with the ability to consent to having part of their genitals removed?

Amazing.

Don't cut bits off other people. It is pretty simple.

People only think that because in our culture mutilating the genitals of baby boys is seen as pretty much OK.

Either it is OK for both or it is OK for neither. I am going with neither.

I wasn't aware that baby boys were born with the ability to consent to having part of their genitals removed?
yes, that is accurate, if stating the obvious; was there something in my previous post that suggested otherwise?

Cutting someone who cannot consent for anything other than an actual medical need is just as evil and wrong whether the person you are cutting is a male or a female.

There is no difference in my mind between mutilating a boy and mutilating a girl, they are just as bad.

There is nothing that can be said to convince me otherwise. Not one single thing. It is just as evil to remove a boy's foreskin as it is to sew up a girl's labia. The scale might be different but the thought that the child is a possession to be done with as the adult wills is the same.

Exactly the same, there is no difference.

Exactly the same, there is no difference
hmmm..no difference? OK.....whatever...
I do agree with you though, poor babies of any sex having bits snipped etc....it's just not right.

I think it never really helps when mutliation of girls threads move on to that of boys as the former is much worse than the latter so it tends to sully the issues (although I would also like to see Jewish, Muslim and all other circumcision prohibited on children - for boys I would probably allow the boy after 2 sessions of NHS counselling on his own to consent at 13 if he so wished).

To discuss both on the same thread tends to downgrade the issue of FMG which has much worse consequences for girls.

I may be presumptuous, but i think majority of us agree mutilating any baby's genitalia, male or female, is wrong. Plain and simple wrong.
Most horrific since it normally has the blessing of the two people who are entrusted with the baby's safekeeping and health, the parents.
We need to ensure the laws of the land are implemented and people indulging in this barbaric practice prosecuted.

If most girls are removed from the uk to have it carried out cant there be a system of confiscating passports?
Or have a specific medical facility at key airports for girls of that age returning from danger zones in Africa?

Agree with Xenia.
It may be detrimental to both the issues if male and female circumcision are clubbed together.
And before someone jumps the gun, I abhor them both.

I have heard there are doctors in this country that do it.
Any Somalian girl being taken out of the UK for an 'extended family holiday' should be taken into care,there could be a system of headteachers alerting the SS.
I suppose this would be 'racist' and 'culturally insensitive'.

I'm not a fan of male circumcision, or mutilation if you want to call it that. But it should never be lumped together with FGM. FGM is far more intrusive and with many more consequences. It's a separate issue. I heard both being discussed on Radion 4 recently. With male circumcision a lot of the discussion was to do with health and its (arguable) benefits. FGM - no one can argue that it's good for the girl. It's downright evil.

To bring male circumcision into a discussion of FGM is to detract and muddy the waters - it's really not helpful.

I would not take girls into care who were going on holidays. That is going too far but I would do regular health inspections in schools and educate girls and send leaflets home to parents.

Yes, the Sunday Times went under cover and found two doctors apparently prepared to be involved. The police have now arrested them (they are not convicted of course yet so innocent until proven guilty etc but it doesn't look very good)
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9246130/Pair-held-by-police-investigating-female-genital-mutilation-in-UK.html

To save air costs sometimes someone is flown over here by women to have it done here for girls.

I would encourage everyone on the thread to watch the Guardian video on youtube -

for those who have said that checks are not done what else would you suggest.

the checks would be done on teens when fgm is most prevelant. who would understand why, a class before the check and some information and I'm sure most would not see this as abusive. Our dc's are much smarter than we think.

MrsBucketxx - except that the girls might still refuse, yes? Might be too scared of what will happen to their aprents/ay backlash against themselves to consent to examination. And I'm sure you're not advocating forcibly examining the girls who do not consent? Plus if it happens regularly, girls are going to be pulled out of school, which doesn't help either.

I agree that a few high profile prosecutions ought to make a big difference but you need to find girls who are willing to see that through as it's their bodies which are the primary evidence.

Targetting the practitioners might be a better bet for said cases.

Oops, meant to say - I had chronic UTIs as a child and had to be examined at regular intervals up toteh age of about 6, and the sense of being powerless to stop this doctor touching me is still with me today. I'm pretty sure it's one of the things that makes me a bit 'icky' about my own genetalia.

Some high profile prosecutions would help. A clear message that this is illegal. Some education which is age appropriate - this is done to 5 and 6 year olds often not teenagers. Not much point in examining them when it's already been done. We could easily have a pre school medical check at 4 or 5 to check it has not yet been done. The Government is already weighing children in some areas and always has at schools. Also plenty of families children of that age run around naked. We don't want children in the UK ashamed of their bodies so they should have no fear of a quick examination by a nurse. If they are ashamed of their naked bodies then we need to address that too - there are objective rights and objective wrongs and we cannot be overly PC. If they want to live in a country where FMG is done and women all cover up they have the choice to be there.

I would not take girls into care who were going on holidays.

No, just refuse them permission to leave.

if a child or parents refuse fine them. more money to pay off the government defecit.

it they are not british nationals fine or deport them. we need to send a message this will not be accepted.

FGM is abhorrent, however the thought of compulsory genital checks on schoolgirls is also pretty grim. I can recall getting really upset at having to take my knickers off for a doctor at age 4 ish, as a teenager I would have done anything I could to get out of such a check. It would also be easy to avoid, by taking days off etc.

The law as it is must be enforced. The practice must be discussed, including in school so that girls know what their rights are and know where they can go for help if it is happening in their own community.

It is really shocking that girls are coming to the UK for this to be done. I know from midwives that it is quite prevalent in my area, but getting less so among the younger women, so hopefully things are changing.

Abit get your facts right, please. FGM is not solely practised in Muslim societies, it is widely practised amongst MANY religions in Africa, whether they be Muslim, Christian etc etc.

And yes, pretty much EVERY Somali woman born and brought up in that country will have experienced FGM. It's something like 99% there.

Also, in MANY areas, FGM is practised at a far younger age than 11. 3 or 4 is not that uncommon.

Yes, Trazzle. And if you read my remarks carefully, you will see that I said this is phaeronic in origin and has no islamic origin, and practised throughout north africa, down to the maasai regions [of central kenya]. Who are animists.

if a child or parents refuse fine them. more money to pay off the government defecit.

it they are not british nationals fine or deport them. we need to send a message this will not be accepted.

Well said Mrs Bucket. It is VERY SAD that we have lost faith in the rightness of our institutions and need brave brave women like Aayan Ali Hursi to state them for us. So does Douglas Murray, but he is dismissed as a right wing crackpot AND he went to Eton don't you know, therefore you don't have to listen to a word he says.

because our police force have NOT taken an interest yet. 100 prosecutions France. Our police our a soort of law unto themselves.