OMFG is anyone watching Newsnight.

[carernotasaint]

Its about FGM. How can they fucking to this to girls and women. One girl was only three when it happened. MY GOD.

wiki

"The WHO has offered four classifications of FGM. The main three are Type I, removal of the clitoral hood, almost invariably accompanied by removal of the clitoris itself (clitoridectomy); Type II, removal of the clitoris and inner labia; and Type III (infibulation), removal of all or part of the inner and outer labia, and usually the clitoris, and the fusion of the wound, leaving a small hole for the passage of urine and menstrual blood?the fused wound is opened for intercourse and childbirth.[4] Around 85 percent of women who undergo FGM experience Types I and II, and 15 percent Type III, though Type III is the most common procedure in several countries, including Sudan, Somalia, and Djibouti.[5] Several miscellaneous acts are categorized as Type IV. These range from a symbolic pricking or piercing of the clitoris or labia, to cauterization of the clitoris, cutting into the vagina to widen it (gishiri cutting), and introducing corrosive substances to tighten it.[4]"

"The procedures known as FGM were referred to as female circumcision until the early 1980s, when the term "female genital mutilation" came into use.[8] The term was adopted at the third conference of the Inter-African Committee on Traditional Practices Affecting the Health of Women and Children in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, and in 1991 the WHO recommended its use to the United Nations.[2] It has since become the dominant term within the international community and in medical literature.[5] Alexia Lewnes argued in a 2005 report for UNICEF that the word "mutilation" differentiates the procedure from male circumcision and stresses its severity.[9]"

That wiki page is absolutely horrendous.
Needs to be read I think.

I think that this culture thing is misunderstood. Obviously FGM is wrong. People should be prosecuted for it. It is not acceptable.

I do also think the issue needs to be tackled from within the cultures belief system. This is easily done. If you look at the Islamic sources regarding female circumcision they are very clear "?Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.?" only the top of the part that looks "like a roosters comb" is permissable to cut. This describes clitoral hoodectomy.

Now like male circumcision there is obviously still a debate about the morals behind that.

Nailak it seems that "hoodectomy" is a very small proportion of procedures carried out, with the vast majority involving much more extreme procedures.

yes I agree, what I am saying is instead of going to people and saying this is all wrong, which they are not going to listen to as they have evidence that allows it in their religion, it may be better to tackle the situation by religious leaders or members of their community where it occurs saying in Islam FGM by cutting labia is haram, only a small cut is allowed.

Wel no-one is going to listen to me

it seems the who and similar are doing their best.
just realised I never put the wiki link!

here

terribly sad and awful and shocking and grim.

nailak I think you mean this

"Lynn Thomas writes that the ritual of FGM has been the primary context in some communities in which the women come together. Because they see it as a way of elevating themselves from girlhood to womanhood, and thereby a way of differentiating between each other, Thomas argues that to remove FGM is to remove that opportunity to gain authority. She writes that the "eradicationists" have responded to these criticisms by reaching out to the African communities and strengthening their relationships with local anti-FGM activists.[67] For example, one of the issues that keeps FGM going in some communities is that the practitioners have no other way to earn a living. Organizations working to end it are therefore offering the women training of some kind; teaching them how to become farmers, for example.[73]"

And at the end of that paragraph some good news:
"As of July 2011, 6,236 communities in seven countries have abandoned female genital mutilation."

Also talks on the wiki about how a some well publicised deaths in egypt + clerics saying no basis in islam = government had to act.

Which is what you also mention.
It's cultural stuff which has been hung on the hook of a religion to make it seem indisputable.

Never heard of it but I feel sick and so sad now.

That is quite encouraging to hear SQ that 6,236 communities have abandoned FGM

• shows change is certainly possible and some considerable progress being made on this

Awful to think how many girls and women are affected

There is a fantastic project run by a group of UK and African midwives doing amazing work with women to hold 'Alternative Rites of Passage' in place of FGM. Beyond FGM

What I find horrific is the extent to which British citizens and residents have been/are subject to this practice.

My local nhs trust (a huge trust, deals with over 17,000 births in the year 2010/11) saw 7.8% of mothers giving birth had been subjected to FGM.

Let me repeat that- 7.8 of births last year in 1 trust were to mothers who had undergone FGM.

That is an abomination.

The Government have got to stop tiptoeing round this and fucking get and do something about it.
Odemod that is horrifying.

This website may be of interested

28toomany.org/

That strange "hobbled" walk/shuffle you see on some Somali women (first group that pops to mind) is indicative of Type III mutilation.

So I'm saddened, but not wholly surprised by odmedod's statistics, and I bet the mw's have some tales to tell.

What I am also saddened about are the couple of (very honest!) Revelations on this thread that they've never heard of FGM. How can this be? I thought it was mainstream? It's featured on NIP/TUCK , was it in an Alice Walker book? And I guess Marie Claire/economist/time run an annual article each.

IMHO its time to stop skirting around the issue.
This abhorrent practice needs to be banned in the western society at the least and education extended to Africa where it is predominantly prevalent.
We may and should not dictate how the African cultures bring their daughters up, lest be accused of cultural colonisation, but we can start by discussion,engagement and education.
I find this obsession with female (or male for that matter, but that's another thread altogether!) genitalia rather perverse.

we should dictate how people live in this country, people who practise this bs are happy to bring their mess to this country for us to clear up. on newsnight, one of the somalian girls said that the nhs was at fault for not dealing with the effects of fgm. the families are at fault for practising this backward, dangerous bullshit. there is no need for 'cultural sensitivity' when the practise offers nothing positive.

It's one thing for the west to go to African countries and say "this is wrong", there are problems with that.

We may and should not dictate how the African cultures bring their daughters up, lest be accused of cultural colonisation.

I disagree with both of these statements. I think we bloody well should intervene.

exactly, i agree too.

you can't change their culture but you can stop the butchery of their daughters.

maybe checking all girls if a certain age at school by a nurse could stop it here. if there is any evidence the patents sill he arrested and procecuted failiure to take the check you gain you a fine.

i wouldn't mind my dd bring checked if i knew this was the reason. nothing to hide nothing to worry about.

it saddens me the attitude towards women by men in so many cultures.

parents will be

creighton and hopemynamechangeworked
I think I may not have articulated well what I intended to convey.
When I said we should not dictate how african cultures bring their daughters up, I meant in Africa.
This practice should be banned in the UK and persons engaging in it in Britain should be prosecuted, whether africans or not. In UK we have a right to and are empowered to grant human rights to one and all.
However intervening in African continent, has to be through education and engagement. We don't have a democratic right to impose any laws there.
Should we try to indoctrinate and impose our views, radical supporters of FGM are liable to twist it for their benefit. We would be wrongly implicated of cultural imperialism. We do not want the pro FGM lobby to use "we need to protect our culture" and "stay away from our customs" be doled out in defence for this abomination.

Apologies for the grammatical errors, caffeine deficiency.

When I said we should not dictate how african cultures bring their daughters up, I meant in Africa.

I still disagree. I think we should intervene on such a serious issue.

"We do have Child Protection guidelines at work but, in general, who are you going to prosecute? And how are you going to find out? I don't think this is a clear issue at all."

is the sort of relativistic BS we need to get rid of in this society. WHY do we doubt that our values triumph and are unwilling to impose them on OUR OWN TURF, so much?