OMFG is anyone watching Newsnight.

[carernotasaint]

Its about FGM. How can they fucking to this to girls and women. One girl was only three when it happened. MY GOD.

Mrsbucket- whilst I applaud your idea for action, I worry that children will suffer as a result of prosecutions.

1. the families that continue these practices are almost exclusively at the lower ends of the socio-economic scale, usually the poorest families in our society- asylum seekers, refugees, people without leave to remain. Prosecuting parents will cause further poverty to children. Parents could not aford fines, they would be jailed, bringing further hardship to their children.

2. it would be degrading and humiliating for children being checked. (Thinking back, I could not think of anything worse that could happen in your school career) imagine being told your genitals were deformed. It would also lead to girls not being schooled, as families carying out FGM would withdraw girls so they're not checked.

3. a child discovered to have undergone FGM, and triggering a prosecution has already been mutilated, how is she helped by checks after she'sundergone the process?

Lighthouse,

My Somali friend has never had it done and doesn't know anyone who has.

Has it never occurred to you that your Somali friend is lying?

I suggest you read Aayan Hursi for starters.

just wanted to point out that FGM is illegal in the UK, also illegal to send girls outside UK to get it done.

I don't want to distract from the thread's initial point by engaging in a debate, but I do humbly fail to realise how we can "intervene" in other democracies other than bringing the firm believers of FGM to the table through international humanitarian organisations and discussion with them.
Opening their eyes to the butchery through education and real life experiences would hopefully lead to see them the error of their ways and savagery inflicted on their daughters.
Telling their tribal leaders, often male , what not to do only empowers them to carry on what they did with renewed vigor.
But who am I in the great scheme of things, this was as I mentioned my possibly naively optimistic opinion, which no one listens to anyway.

Odmedod your limp-wristed hand-wringing is THE most infuriating part of this 'non-action'.

You are equating the 'checking' of girls with a similar situation where they are held down and HURT PERMANENTLY. You put certain 'rights' over what are actually inalienable rights.
And, you, quite seriously, put the discomfort of being checked (3 seconds) as a higher hurt! I mean, being degraded and humiliated by racist white people [because that is what really worries you], over sexual satisfaction and non-dangerous births!!!!!!

What planet do you people come from? And people who think like you, infest all sectors of 'public service'. You should all be sacked.
It is quite terrifying. What happened to this glorious country!

Have you ever witnessed one of these procedures? Have you? I think you should. Even as a film, you should witness it, unedited, from beginning to end. And also, operating on fistula repair (do you know what that is?), you should watch that, and the traumatic reaction of women to a normal obgyn examination. You should watch that too, whilst you worry about their 'degradation' at the hands of 'white people'. Oh yes, and the stillbirth of a child who simply cannot descend down a scarred restricted birth canal. Watch that as well. This all happens, in Africa of course. So get your limp wristed ass over there, and get real.

The FRENCH have the right attitude.

abit your posts are a little strong

"you should all be sacked"?

Also how do you suggest then that the west intervene in other countries to stop this? We don't intervene over mass rape, murder, torture etc, generally. What action do you think we should take to end this practice in eg somalia?

Bugsy - lighthouse, wasn't suggesting it was all Somali women - don't back down. It IS Somali women. And women all the way down the north (not sub-sarahan) Africa, including the Masai.

This 'belief' is Pharoanic in origin. It originated in Egypt, where 90% of women are affected, but has been adopted by those Islamic societies to keep control over women. However it is not Islamic, it is more ancient than that.

I really think we need to stop uttering platitudes about this, but read what people who have had it done to them, and are campaigning to stop it. Aayan Hursi for one, and the model - Warsi - another. Surely they should be listened to!
And the limp wristed relativists be seriously challenged over their distorted thinking.

just wanted to point out that FGM is illegal in the UK, also illegal to send girls outside UK to get it done.

Have there been any prosecutions in the UK for sending girls overseas for this procedure, do you know? Not challenging you, just genuinely curious.

abit i couldn't have said it better myself

surely the threat of procecution or a fine would stop them or make the parents think twice.

as i said nothing to hide nothing to worry about.

No I don;t think anyone has been prosecuted, either for doing it here or sending children abroad

No I don;t think anyone has been prosecuted, either for doing it here or sending children abroad.

I think that would make an excellent campaign for an MP with some time on their hands...

FGM is al horror that is very real. It is not limited to any one religion (in my understanding, indeed the practice is not necessarily sanctioned by any religion officially but is a 'cultural' practice). It is utterly abhorent to me and to many. I feel (for what it is worth, in my humble opinion) that for other countries it will only be removed with education. It is debilitating for women and many countries will only be able to move forward with women reaching their full potential.

In this country it is right that we enforce this law against FGM.

It is very good that threads like this widen information, we women in the west (if we are) can use our voices for our sisters in other places.

OP thank you for starting this thread.

Lots of patents use the opportunity of the long summer holiday from school to take these girls out of the country (or sometimes stay here) to get it done at the beginning then keep the girl out of sight for the few weeks of 'leg binding' that comes afterwards.
No-one notices these missing girls for these weeks because they aren't in school anyway.

I suggested on a thread last year that a way to help is to shorten the summer holiday as then they wouldn't be able to hide that it had happened. But I was leaped on for putting the welfare of hundreds of girls ahead of others' desire for a long summer break. Hmm

for other countries it will only be removed with education.

I don't think that's enough. Men don't want their women to stray, so they mutilate them. Do you really think they are going to change their views because some soppy white woman tells them they're wrong?

Oopse sorry, meant to include this link, I think it is a USA site.

mashuavoiceforthevoiceless.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/stop-lying-about-fgm-in-africa-to-make.html

Sardine, a bit heavy? - read Thomas Sowell (Philosophy Professor Stanford University) - The Vision of The Anointed (Self-Congratulation as a basis of Social Policy).

It is a post graduate read, ie heavy going with a lot of census comparisons because he needs to prove his point, but his basic premise is:

The West is sleepwalking to disaster because it clings to left liberal ideology and is blind to the discordant EMPIRICAL feedback that those good intentions DON'T WORK and in fact make matters worse.

That these people (limp wristed relativists) are not the majority but are highly articulate and dominate the main institutions of society (education, civil service, law, politics, media) and so have influence far above their actual numbers. That they are motivated by Good Intentions and truly believe that they are morally superior to the silent majority. When faced with evidence that their Visions don't work, their response is to either accuse the person raising the point of being uncaring/racist/not as moral as they (the ad hominem attacks of the left) or to reply that the solution is more (welfare, understanding, etc)

Sowell examines Visions beloved of the left - the 'war on poverty', rehabilitative crime, to name 2 examples, and proves absolutely empirically that rewarding bad choices through welfare has in fact made for MORE poor people. Since the liberalisation of the criminal justice system in the 1960s and the accordance of rights to criminals, crime has rocketed, on every level.

Some recent examples are Labour's disgraceful response (accusations of racism in the working class) to concerns about immigration - a policy they did not discuss with the electorate ONCE before implementing it (highly dysfunctional) - and the arch delusionist himself, Gordon Brown, who bankrupted this country in persuit of his Vision of Fairness For All.

Staggeringly, he has got away with it by blaming the bankers. Whereas in a truly fair world, he would be charged or sectioned.

Thsi is what you do . In schools with a large number of Somalis, Egyptians etc once a year you send leaflets home to all parents when the girls are about 5. Then from age 6 upwards once a year they are examined by the school nurse just like they might be weighed or checked for other problems (or indeed nits). I think the damage done is so huge that if we upset a few abusive parents who do this then that is no problem at all.

To SQ I would much rather we intervened abroad in countries over FMG and the rights of women than over oil or money (but we never do of course, it is always only about money or oil that we intervene). We need the whole world to realise how wrong objectively and on any scale these things are. We need to cast fingers in judgment wherever these wrongs occur.

I also add that Thomas Sowell is black (just in case he is dismissed as a reactionary racist).

One of his very sad statistics, for his community, is that before 1960 when 'civil rights' legislation was implemented, the marriage rates amongst black Americans was exactly the same as the rest of the population. When we look at the broken families amongst the Projects, we musn't kid ourselves that it 'just happened' or that 'it was always like this'.

Have just watched the Newsnight programme on this, with Gavin Esler.

I think it's very good that they led a programme looking at this issue.

However I think Gavin could have been a bit more sensitive in the way he put the first question to Waris Diries - she clearly wasn't sure how to respond to such a massive opening question. Perhaps Gavin could have started with a question to someone else eg Ruth Rendell or the French doctor and come to Waris a little later ?

Also he seemed unsure later, when talking with the Somali girls, about the different classifications and types of FGM carried out. That seemed like fairly basic research he should have carried out (with support from the Newsnight team) and understood to me.

Agree Somali girls were very strong and convincing in their views

hopemynamechangeworked yes, I think you are right, I don't think education is enough, but I am just not sure how people can influence other countries without going via education.

Maybe we could add to this political and economic power, for example aid and trade could to tied to fair and equal or at least acceptable (I hate even writing this but how exactly do you 'make' a country change its views to women!) - I guess I mean yes, maybe education is not enough, it can be tied to aid and trade and general help. it is also important that those high up in countries are 'got on board' and will want to promote positive views of women and stop this and other violence against them.

I wonder how other cruel and pointless practices (like foot binding) died out? Just found this, I guess this is the kind of education I was would really see having an impact, not just telling but telling in a way that it reveals so much more. Anyway, if anyone can think of things that would work I would be behind it, when something is so prevalent you maybe need to turn the tide/the tipping point so that it becomes the norm not to do it.

www.slideshare.net/betseymerkel/the-end-of-foot-binding-in-china

We do intervene in other countries in regards to torture and other human rights abuse violations. This is a human rights abuse violation - the only difference is that it happens to girls. FGM happens here as well as abroad.

Those who wish to blame the Left - multiculturalism is a liberal ideology. It is not the same as anti-racism. Multiculti preserves all the repressive elements of repressive cultures.

Don't have the patience to talk about the double-dip recession again.

I don't see that multi-culturalism has to "preserve all the repressive elements of repressive cultures."

I do tend to think of multi-culturalism as generally a force for good - embracing different cultures, food, festivals, and music etc. of the world, and making the world a richer, more colourful, more diverse and more tolerant place.

But I think you can have an informed, discerning, multi-culturalism, that would still challenge anything negative within different communities and cultures ?