OMFG is anyone watching Newsnight.

[carernotasaint]

Its about FGM. How can they fucking to this to girls and women. One girl was only three when it happened. MY GOD.

(as a lily-livered liberal) i can't bring myself to agree that checks should be carried out on all girls who come from a specific background...

however i also totally agree that these kind of checks should be carried out on girls who are viewed as being at risk. if it is suspected that a parent is abusing a child, or is permitting a child to be abused i'm afraid i can see no argument against a physical check of the child.

the reality as well is that a check for FGM shouldn't be anything like a smear test - surely a quick visual check is all that is required??

If other European countries have cracked down on this then there is absolutely no reason the UK shouldn't be doing so.In France the authorities had the right to examine girls they suspected of being at risk. I am so so sick of Britains 'respect' for other cultures being taken to extremes.
how come when one race is being oppressed (eg when aparteid d was in force in S Africa) we could interfere in internal affairs in another country, by imposing sanctions etc.But when it comes to this awful awful oppression of women is taking place , we don't intefere because it's a cultural thing - not our business?
I can't get this horrible thing out of my head- doing it to a 3 yr old is horrendous enough, but then imagine you are alittle girl of 11 or 12 and you know and understand what is going to happen to you . having the fear and dread of that hanging over your head for years
.
I wonder what we can do

How.did we get from fgm to kids shouldny have to.cover up and those who want to cover up should leave the country?

And people really want girls to either be prevented from visiting their relatives or on the way back from visiting relatives be forced to undergo intimate examinations at the airport, because of what a minority of British somalians do?
How many cases were there in comparison to the British east African community?

So because there are a few cases of priests abusing kids, should we routinely examine all kids that come in to contact with priests?

It wouldn't be quick visual check, as I am sure you can't see the clitoris and decide if clitoral hood has been cut without a closer inspection.

Personally if this was compulsory I would take my daughter out of school and she hasn't had fgm. So I imagine those who have had it would do the same.

To prevent this we.would have to change the laws on homeschooling as well?

Also the rules on independant schools, they would have to check.too?

I think education is the key. Targeting this group when they have children or start school with info on fgm, the religious view on fgm, in their languages, letting thrm know if they are being pressured who they can get advice from without their grandmothers being arrested.

how can you educate a culture, where the people (especially men) are brought up to think women are inferior and unclean.

boys are taught to have a sense of entitlement from birth.these cultures will not change only a change in the law to convict the abusive patents would.

Nailak- yes I thionk it would have to be extended to homeschooled and Independent school children.

Christ, Xenia, I watched the first 3 seconds of the guardian video and had to turn it off because I'm at work and simply can't sob at my desk.

That poor girl.

The screaming.

MrsBucket, see if you go to women of a different culture and tell them that do you think they will listen to you? you think that would be productive?

I have already said, I would tell them in Islam this is haram, bring the evidences from within their own belief system. Not say your whole belief system is rubish you must stop i right now.

Carry so then families would obviously just keep their daughters abroad until 11, and not just those that do fgm, those that wouldnt want their daughters to be examined that way unnecessarily as well.

you can't change their culture but you can stop the butchery of their daughters

I think that this sums up the problem - the idea that you cannot change the culture. I think that FGM should be stopped but I don't think that it can be stopped by hitting parents of girls in this country.

The problem is that FGM is seem as a very middle/upper class thing to do in many African cultures, and many men do not want an un mutilated wife - so this cultural aspect needs to change as well.

Surely what matters is stopping this once and for all, everywhere - not just stopping it in this country.

Incidently I think that chopping off any part of a baby or child is wrong so am anti male genital mutilation as well and suspect that as long as that is seen as "okay" then FGM will also continue.

I do not doubt that male circumsision is painful and barbaric, but to compare it to FGM....is.....not comparable

it is (I think) directly comparable in that it is an assumption, on the part of the parents/culture that they have the right to chop bits off a child.

Well I've just watched Newsnight on iplayer. I almost switched it off halfway through because my blood was boiling, if I'd been there I'd have been shaking people! It was only the common sense of those lovely girls that made me watch until the end.
I'm so sick to death of all this 'racist' stuff. They said they can't target which girls to examine. Why not? They are the girls that need help and resources should be targeted at them. The people who are butchering their little girls have scant respect for our laws so why should we be so worried about offending them? I don't give a stuff if their feelings are hurt, just so long as they know they aren't going to get away with mutilating their daughters. In Xenia's clip the young woman who was taken away for FGM was saying that she wants there to be medical checks at airports for girl's coming back from 'holidays' in Somalia, we are letting down girls like her by not doing that. She is right, it's the only way to stamp it out.
I also can't bear the thought that girls are being brought here to be abused like this because we are seen as such a soft touch. For once I agree with the French, they are sending a very clear signal that they won't tolerate FGM and they are sticking to it. Even the old woman who was jailed has seen the error of her ways!

its a bit simplistic to say why should we care about their feelings when they dont care about our laws, because out of the target group the vast majority dont do fgm and do care about our laws.

I find it slightly ironic that people would be so sensitive about their children's genitals being examined by medical professionals and yet quite happy to hold their daughters' legs apart while someone else hacks away at them with whatever sharp implement comes to hand.

When children are first born and for the first few years they have no issue at all about flashing their bodies to all and sundry. Sadly, that changes because they start to pick up on society's mores about it. Unless we want to become a country of naturists, I doubt there is much we can do about that. But we could try to instil in our children the fact that there is nothing shameful about any part of your body and they should be no more concerned about a doctor or other medic checking their genitals (obviously with a parent present) than examining their ear or whatever. This would be much healthier in the long run.

I would be perfectly happy for my daughter to be examined annually (with me there) if I thought that by such examinations taking place it might prevent some other poor child being mutilated.

but it is not the same people who are sensitive to medical exams that are holding their legs apart is it?

Im sorry but I let my kids know that their private parts are special and that is why they dont show it to everyone, and it is not normal for people to touch you there etc.

"people would be so sensitive about their children's genitals being examined by medical professionals and yet quite happy to hold their daughters' legs apart while someone else hacks away at them with whatever sharp implement comes to hand."

Yup. How distorted can your thinking get!

Well, yes it is the same people Nailak. They are not the only people who are sensitive, I grant you. But FGM is done partly at least in the name of keeping women "pure" and their private parts special so, to keep one set of people (men who are not their husbands) away from those private parts, these people commit the greatest atrocity and violence possible against them instead. So yes, I would imagine they are certainly amongst those who would complain about regular medical checks.

And, do you seriously not think it is possible to teach your children that those parts are special and not to be shown to everyone or touched by people in the normal run of things, and at the same time, that it is okay to be examined in a medical context with a parent present? Becuase I certainly hope my daughter will grow up to understand the difference.

its a bit simplistic to say why should we care about their feelings when they dont care about our laws, because out of the target group the vast majority dont do fgm and do care about our laws.

Well then Nailak the vast majority will have nothing to worry about will they? Did you look at that YouTube clip? That poor girl was so angry and upset that there were no medical checks, because she knew that if there were her parents wouldn't have done it to her. Sorry if you think it's simplistic but after watching that I'm afraid it was simple to me. Surely the 'law abiding majority' will support any efforts to stamp out this practice, to stop any more lives being ruined? If they don't do FGM on their own daughters then they must be against it mustn't they? The girls on Newsnight pointed out that it was no different to having a smear test and supported the french method of medical checks if it saves girls from FGM. If that's how they see the solution to this problem then I think the govt should be listening to them.

and of course no adults have issues with smear tests? even grown women dont like it when they fully understand the consequences.

On newsnight that minister even said she wouldnt like her daughter to have those checks, is she the same people who are holding their daughters legs apart?

Yes I think it is possible to teach your children the difference. I was just saying that teaching children about private parts is not the same as teaching children to be ashamed of their bodies and that their privates are something shameful in response to Xenia and mummyfats comments about children running around naked.

What about the other approaches mentioned such as the Danish approach? Just because one is againstthis approach doesnt mean they are against trying to stamp it out.

Just because that particular group of girls feel that way doesnt mean it is representative of all.

and some posters seem to have missed the bit where it was made clear this wouldnt be targeted at specific groups through racial profiling, but for all.

I'm from a medical family and the sort of family where you might well be naked at home or on a nudist beach and indeed even my grandparents in the 1930s swam naked in the sea etc. We need people not to be ashamed of their bodies. These girls may well have to be examined by a doctor as they get older so I don't see why a discreet medical examination of girls on entering school at 5 (gosh they get a totallyf ree education which is a massive perk compared to some countries and it is a small price to pay that you might have a brief medical examination and let us weigh them all too and check for nits as we always did in schools - this is not a new thing) which takes about 5 minutes and upsets no one.

I certanily do not say examination is the only method. Just as important is education. In many countries this has worked. Men have said look we don't want this done to our women. If the culture is a man in charge as it often is and he prohibits his mother in law having it done to the little girls then it may well stop. If he is shown that it is illegal here and there may well be spot checks (we could threaten spot checks, then have some local publicity from a Somali family who are in on the exercise who say they were checked in the local papers and that would make the others realise there may well be checks).

It is cultural not religious so if you can argue it is counter their religion as people have mentioned above that is good too.

Sorry I shocked someone above with the Guardian video link. After the first part it does interview some older girls and is worth watching if you can get beyond the initial bit. It does not show her being cut so is only awful in the sense of what you know you can hear happening.

Personally I have never had a major problem with smear tests, and I am not sure what the consequences of them are that you refer to?

I am afraid I don't know what the Danish approach is so can't comment. However, if it is working, perhaps that should be tried too or instead?

I don't know about others, but I wAS assuming it would be for all. My understanding is that FGM may be more prevalent in some groups than others but is not necessarily restricted to them.

Checks like this might have some side benefits which would be of more general application to the rest of the population anyway. I read some time ago on here about a child who was discovered to have no vagina or no entrance to her vagina - I am afraid I cannot recall which. Anyway anomolies such as these could be picked up earlier and treated with checks such as this. Perhaps sexual abuse too could be spotted? Certainly, people might be less inclined to abuse children if they knew they were being regularly checked.

Boys in England, at the age of 10-11, used to be examined for testicular problems (in schools, by school nurse). Friend's undescended testicle was found this way (?1977?). So there is precedent.

Yeah, when I was at school we were lined up on a table and examined as part of a medical when we were 4 or 5. Sure, it was embarrassing and I can see that some might find it slightly traumatic, but compared with FGM, it was nothing.

We need to stop these bastards from doing this.

Xenia No need to apologise for me being a big weepy mess -

Firstly because it should be shocking and horrific. It's absolutely appropriate that people should feel that way about it.

Secondly because I'm pregnant and that makes me quicker to cry than usual, plus a friend has just lost her baby girl, so anything about people harming girls has me even more upset than usual.

But on the whole, I'm glad I watched (the first 3 seconds of) that video. It will never, ever leave me and has spurred me to actually do a few things about preventing FGM (letters to MPs and ministers, give a bit of money, post to social media) and keep on doing them. I still tear up when I think about it and frankly, I'd be okay to feel like that forever. I think shock, horror and rage are absolutely accurate emotional responses to this child abuse.

xenia you refer to free education as a perk, but their are definitely significant minorities who would give up that perk if it was conditional on intimate examinations of my child on a regular basis. I would home school. Others would send their daughters back home from the ages of 5 to 11.

So parents would prefer to live without their children for 6 years rather than allow a qualified medic to make a brief examination of their genitals once a year, or possibly less often, with a parent present? And that, in an effort to prevent other small children and teenagers being subjected to the sort of abuse shown in Xenia's film? Really? Well those people must have seriously skewed priorities.

Nailak your attitude is kind of sad.

You cannot and should not be able to pick and choose what you like and don't like of your host country. If people come here because (surprise, surprise) the laws and institutions of the country give rise to a rule of law and the thriving economy that provides jobs (which is WHY immigration happens), then immigrants need to understand and accept the ethos behind the laws and institutions.

Professor Niall Ferguson wrote a very good book explaining why the West succeeds - he

If the immigrant communities resent being targett ased a consquences of their 'cultural practices', then they could enter into a binding contract with the authorities that they will NOT do this to their daughters, and that if it is subsequently found that they have, then the entire family be deported with no leave to appeal.