OMFG is anyone watching Newsnight.

[carernotasaint]

Its about FGM. How can they fucking to this to girls and women. One girl was only three when it happened. MY GOD.

Abitwobbly

Erm, I see that you've picked up on my point. I understand that you feel strongly (as I think everybody should about this issue), but I'm talking about the reality in this country.

The last time I read the information about girls born into this country.....there isn't really any information. We have no idea of the figures and no idea really how to find out. My anecdotal suspicion is that there are very, very few girls who this happens to IN THIS COUNTRY, though it does obviously happen to large amounts of women before they emigrate here (in the govt. CP documentation, it is on the same page as 'witchcraft' so is clearly not considered to be a major form of child abuse in terms of numbers in the UK).

I did look at carrying out research for one of the inner London boroughs (so can be sure none has been carried out there before). The problems:

1. How do you find out who's had it done? You can't check them physically (am I correct in reading some of the posts earlier up the thread suggesting this? Seriously? You can't forcibly check somebody's privates!) and you don't know if they're telling the truth or not.
2. What are you going to do if you find out somebody has had it done? On the basis that the parents would be fairly ignorant people, they may well not have known it was illegal in the first place. Taking the child's best interests as the primary concern here, as you would in any CP case, prosecuting the parents is unlikely to actually help them and, if it ends up in court, could actually be quite traumatic.

Not really sure how that's 'relativist BS'; it's thinking about the child and their reality.

But Tortu, I think you have to prosecute and imprison if necessary to make people realise that the law WILL be enforced. At the moment, who is going to take it seriously when there have been no prosecutions in this country?

And the argument about it being worse if parents go to jail only goes so far. Ideally, of course, the person who actually carries out the mutilation is the one who should go to jail. But if parents take their children abroad, there is no one in this country to prosecute. However, the parents have committed a crime here. If parents took their children abroad and got someone abroad to cut the child's finger off, say, I doubt anyone would say it was better for the parents not to go to jail when they came back here. People would be appalled that the parents had procured such an abuse of their child, and would consider those parents a danger to their child and any other children they might have. The child might even be taken into care in that situation.

Also, the interview with those teenage girls on Newsnight suggested this is a practice which occurs in this country, at parties for the purpose IIRC.

This is not a cultural issue - it really isn't - those teenage girls make that clear. It is abuse pure and simple and it may be necessary to jail one or both parents (perhaps both but with the sentence of one deferred until the other is released so the children don't have to go into care) in order to deter others from doing it.

And as for ignorance, fair enough, but when people arrive in this country or register their children in school or go to the doctor, or whenever, they should be given information (written or verbally, as appropriate) explaining that this is an illegal practice in this country.

I don't think shorter school summer holidays would help, whoever said that earlier. Many children with family elsewhere in the world have extended leave of 3-4 months to visit anyway. THey would just do that - schools will authorise theses trips and they are often (usually I would hope) exactly what they appear to be. I also think that any checking should be done separately from the school system. If girls were to be examined by nurses at school the at risk ones would simply be home educated. THisneeds to be done through the Health Service I think. I am a supporter of the positive aspects of multiculturalism as outlined by Juggling, and am definitely left wing, but I see no problem with routine medical examinations of children which could include a genital exam. It's not as if it would need to be an invasive one as a quick glance would reveal if FGM had taken place.

THere is an e-gov petition here to urge the government to take some action.

I didn't see Newsnight but I did hear on Women's Hour that the French Govt have actively pursued a similar course: they inform parents on a regular basis that FGM is illegal and results in X sentencing if convicted, they inform parents that they check schoolgirls in a yearly exam and if evidence of FGM is found parents will be arrested, they actually bloody do something.

I was horrified to hear on Women's Hour that the UK is considered such a 'soft touch' on prosecuting FGM among EU countries that people from Belgium or France bring their daughters to the UK to have them mutilated.

I'm ashamed that this is a country which, through inaction, shelters such practices.

The Sunday times did some secret recordings a few months ago with two UK doctors who were prepared to arrange it. However many families just take the girls home to have it done. It tends to be something women do to women and I am not even sure men are that keen.

When someone said above we don't know if it happens or how much there is some evidence. In our local or a neighbouring authority teenage girls sometimes take 20 minutes to urinate and there is such a mess down there and are out of their classroom for ages. I assume that is not just made up and they are smoking the loos. I don't see why children shouldn't have a medical. Many schools always had one for children when they started. Lots of us would support schools looking for nits too. It would also help expose those children being abused at home and root out smacking parents too. It would be a very good idea.

Wobbly you are spot on.

I really cannot see the issue with examining as the French do.

Well done, cardibach, for circulating that petition - but why only 810 signatures? Come on people.

It's all wrong, male and female circumcision/mutilation - and while there are degrees of wrongness (and I totally accept that in the case of FGM the harm is in most cases much much worse, especially type III and IV), it's an utterly despicable thing to do to a defenceless female or male child.

We need a Prohibition of Male Circumcision Act as well and to start prosecuting practitioners of both (even though adults who still believe their invisible friends tell them to do it will bleat about their "religious freedoms"). Imagine if it were practised on non-consenting adult prisoners - it would rightly be denounced as "torture". It is so much the worse to do it to children.

Hear hear Urbandad
Agreed we need more signatures!

We learnt about FGM at uni, we once watched a DVD on a fistula clinic where some girls went after their families abandoned them. So sad.

In some countries rose thorns are used to perform the mutilation.

Some of my midwife friends in London have told stories of how some women with FGM will turn up in labour and haven't disclosed the FGM, it has to be cut to allow birth of baby.

I am completely against FGM (obviously!)

But I'm not sure I agree with enforced examinations of girls in school is the answer. Perhaps to adult women who have undergone cervical smears, vaginal examinations, sex and childbirth it doesn't seem like a big deal to have a medical professional have a quick look. But to a young girl, it would be a big deal.

I'm thinking of the experience of an older relative who sneaked out of home as a teenager to attend a concert/festival with a female friend. They were out overnight. When she returned her father insisted that she was examined to check that she hadn't had sex (she hadn't) but it was clear that she found the experience traumatising in itself.

Subjecting girls to an intimate examination with the threat that their parents will be punished if they refuse seems abusive in itself. Yes, perhaps not as physically damaging as them being actually mutilated, but performed on many many more girls.

I seem to remember there being a space in my maternity notes for notes about FGM and wonder if women who are identified via maternity services as victims of FGM should be educated that what was done to them is illegal and harmful to their health and should they allow their own daughters to be mutilated in this fashion then they will be breaking the law. Perhaps noting down on the medical notes of baby girls born to women who have had FGM that they are at risk of this practice, and making sure that education (and possibly medical examinations if this is appropriate) are targeted at girls who are significantly at risk.

I realise that this is not as radical as school screening, abit, but I don't think that subjecting girls and women to tight controls in the name of protecting them is the answer. Just as I don't think that banning the burka is justified on the basis that some women may be forced to wear them, clearly the French disagree.

Your personal attack on Labour, Gordon Brown and those on the liberal left unnecesserily creates a divide with those of us who also want to stop FGM but disagree with your methods.

Its not unthinking relativism (I don't think its right for anyone to practice FGM regardless of what their cultural background is) its a difference of opinion about what is possible, desirable and effective. You presumably think that its possible, desirable and effective to examine the genitals of school girls every year. I disagree, I think that such authoritarian measures only encourage abusers to keep their daughters more hidden, that routine enforced intimate examinations of girls are an inappropriate infringement on the freedom of young women and that general education in schools as part of health and social education and perhaps some targetted intervention through the NHS is more effective.

The message you want young women to get is that their genitals are their own and shouldn't be subjected to abuse by others. I don't think forcing them to submit to a medical examination sits well with that message.

"But Tortu, I think you have to prosecute and imprison if necessary to make people realise that the law WILL be enforced. At the moment, who is going to take it seriously when there have been no prosecutions in this country?"

I think that's the key to this. The UK needs a high profile court case, like the one in France that sent a cutter to jail for 7 years, to not only highlight the problem but to send out the unequivocal message that it IS a crime and will not be tolerated.

Was interesting though I thought that the Somali girls that spoke out on the Newsnight programme said they thought medical screening of girls at school and of young children in clinics seemed fine to them. I guess compared to the abuse of FGM it would seem a very minor matter.

I do agree with you a bit though Spirited Wolf that during middle childhood & the early teenage years it would be embarrassing to some. There is also the idea it could be provided for those most at risk, such as those going to/ returning from north African countries. I think, though not entirely straight-forward to come up with acceptable proposals, it's so important that people should be considering all of these options.

It would after all be much less invasive than a smear test which the Somali girls mentioned by way of comparison.

messyisthenewtidy that is a good point about prosecutions in the UK but what would it be taken seriously?

Parents being sent to jail for subjecting their children to this abuse would be taken seriously, Italiangreyhound. People performing the procedure being sent to jail would also be taken seriously.

It would show the UK cares about little girls and their bodies and won't just brush this under the carpet, so that we become the FGM-holiday destination in Europe, as it would appear we may be becoming, God forbid.

Yes, of course MummyPigsFatTummy I understand your thoughts and share them, but how to get MPs interested in something like this?

I think one of the problems with checks on girls is the issue of parental permission. Every vacination, check up and medical procedure needs parental permision. Sometimes it's done by just not refusing, for example I think when the weight and hearing checks were done on my kids at school I just would have had to sign to say I didn't give permission and not doing that was taken as permission. It needs a court case to take that right away from parents, for example if a parent is refusing life saving treatment.

I wish such checks could be done. I used to teach in East London and had many Somali pupils. I was much less aware of FGM then. But looking back it makes me very sad to think that even one of those little girls I worked with might have gone through such an ordeal.

I know many Somalis, one or two their parents/grandparents have been fgm, but none of them born here have.

I wouldnt like it if my child was checked. More importantly to my DD5 it would be a traumatic event. It would be abuse. In her mind anyway. There would be no difference between a non medical stranger examining her without a parent there and a medical person doing it. It would have same effect.

Apologies I thought the film was about FGM generally worldwide, have just watched it!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18900803

It was specifically about FGM in the UK and of course if that is the case then it is not just education but also law enforcement as there is a law here about it.

I am writing to my local MP to ask him why no one has ever been prosecuted and sending him the link to the newsnight programme.

Yes, MummyPigsFatTummy I think there is something we can do, we can use this programme to alert our MP that we are concerned about it.

If you want to do this and are not sure who your MP is, or how to contact them, you can go to www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/

Just as I am 'happy' to have a smear test every three or whatever years to ensure I don't die from a cancer I would want my daughter if she were at risk of being mutilated to have a check. I would it expect it to be properly done by trained people, medical people. In my humble opinion it would not be necessary to check everyone all the time, just a few checks would begin to show who was breaking the law and would send a message that it is was unacceptable.

Thanks UrbanDad for the petition. I just signed and catch thing took about 5 goes!

Spiritedwolf - a brilliant post.

I would have been traumatised if I had to have such a check every year while at school... And clearly the school would have to tell girls why the check was necessary - wouldn't that be a sure-fire way to induce racisim against that culture?

If a 'check' were a medical check-up, done by a same sex medical person and done for all kids at school, and included things like checking for nits on the head etc would that also be seen as traumatic? I think there is a big difference between a father insisting his daughter be checked in case she had lost her virginity on a night out (as was mentioned earlier) and a medical person checking a child's body for abuse.

If social services thought a child were being sexually abused would they not look for physical evidence?

I am not saying I am in favour of routinely checking everyone all the time, I am saying that children grow into adults and adults and children all end up at the doctors having various bits of their bodies checked for growths, moles etc! It is only very traumatic (one would hope) when done in a scary way.

Maybe to ensure there is no racism it would be necessary to check all kids of a certain age and randomise the age? I am not advocating this, I am just wondering out loud. Is it not a useful thing for kids to be comfortable with an appropriate medical adult doing medical checks, could it not be part of height and weight and all that?

I wonder what those girls on the film would have preferred. One very wisely suggested David Cameron grow a pair and do his job! As there have been no prosecutions in the UK it is clearly not a party political issue at all.

I am just saying at age 5, my DD would find it traumatic. how does it work? is parent with them? even I dont do that sort of intimate thing to her.

I have no idea, and I'm not advocating it, necessarily. I really don't want to sound callous about it.

When my DD was about 5 (she is 7 now) she had to show her private to the doctor for a medical thing. She was a bit nervous and just looked to me, and I said it was fine, and it was fine. We had a lady a doctor at the time but to be honest when she had another problem a year or so later I took her to our male doctor. I would have had her examined because she was in pain and I wanted to help but the doctor said it was not necessary to check her because I descirbed the sympton and gave a cream and she was fine. I am just trying to be very honest because I know it is diffult to take a child to a medical person for something like that but it really was fine. Which is why I have emphasised a medical person. I do teach DD that privates are private and of course would not want a teacher or anyone non-medical doing anything like checking a child's privates!

PS Yes personally I would expect parent to be with them nailak.

I think it is mutilation whether it is done to girls or boys.

They are not your genitals, don't fucking cut them.

As an informed choice of an adult? Hey do what you want with your own.

But there is NO excuse, no religion, no culture, no one single excuse whatsoever that makes it OK to cut bits off people who have no say in the matter.

ALL genital mutilation should be illegal and prosecuted.