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How plausible do we find John Terry's defense?

305 replies

Condover · 09/07/2012 12:35

That he was only repeating words Anton Ferdinand has accused him of saying.

I can't imagine saying those words ever. I'd be very upset to be accused of saying them, but I wouldn't repeat them in my denial, but then I'm not John Terry....

OP posts:
ThePan · 11/07/2012 21:32

ach it is tricky..but also fairly simple. imo. Courts DO change cultures - look at drink/drive, seat belts, pay discrimination (not perfect by any means), disability discrimination, legislation on homosexuality since the 1967 act, lots of things.

Fluffy - it takes time to change cultures. Even the sexists/racist mutterings on building sites and car garages would ebb away as we have children growing up wit ha different threshold.

ThePan · 11/07/2012 21:36

eg, dd recently came across an incident of racism in company with me and her mum. We both checked her reaction. It was one of being dumbstruck. When me and her mum were her age we would have just looked nonplussed and a bit of acceptance that these things happened.

ironman · 12/07/2012 08:00

thepan Firstly let me say I don't condone anyone using insulting or racist language to anyone, but when has it become a crime to use the word black?

Do you think I should have colluded with my white neighbour and brought my black neighbour to court for calling another him "a white bastard". My black neighbour pointed out to me that yes the neighbour was white and in his opinion he was a bastard ( the bastard bit I agreed with).

John Terry and Rio Ferdinand are inarticulate, footballers who regularly abuse each other on the pitch. Since when has insulting someone been a CRIME?

Everyone I have spoken to says Terry should not be in court.

The principle of free speech must be upheld in this country however uncomfortable that is.

I don't agree with what Terry or Ferdinand did on the day. I do believe in free speech, and so does my mixed race husband who is brown. Or should I not say brown in case it offends someone. My father was called an Irish Bastard many times, but he always said to me " as long as they can call me it". He meant that people should have free speech even if he felt insulted. I agreed with him.

I believe in free speech Terry should not have been brought to court, it's a complete waste of taxpayers money.

It's the reason I shall attend the trial today.

ironman · 12/07/2012 08:10

Lepan I have been in court and saw the cross examination of Terry, he says that AF said did you call me a BC and John Terry repeated it.

Also if Terry is such an evil, bigoted, racist as many make out here on this board, then why have all of his fellow team members given character references for him to the court? This also includes the manager and others at Chelsea Football Club. Jose Mouriono his old manager has also given a character reference saying that he never saw any racism amongst his players.

This case just does not stack up and is a complete nonsense.

YouGoonie · 12/07/2012 09:25

I don't know if he's an evil, bigoted racist. I do know that I think he's a cunt.

Mintyy · 12/07/2012 09:29

DH knows them all (professionally) and says no way is Terry actually racist, as in thinking the white race is superior to all others. He is just not very intelligent.

YouGoonie · 12/07/2012 09:38

That I can believe Mintyy I don't think he's racist but did he say something stupid because he was angry and didn't think about the consequences?-probably.

Not saying that excuses it obviously.

albertswearengen · 12/07/2012 10:07

John Terry is probably not a racist per se but I presume as he is Chelsea's captain and a former England captain and he did so on a televised football match they wanted to make a point that the use of casually racist language is not acceptable.
The use of the word black in this context is seen as derogatory rather than descriptive and as a fair proportion of this country is still racist I would suspect they want to make an example of him. Casually racist or sectarian language is not acceptable even if the person saying it does not regard themselves as bigoted.
I have to say I was cunted out after reading the report in the paper.
Unfortunately for John Terry I don't think being thick is a defence in the eyes of the law.

EldritchCleavage · 12/07/2012 11:53

I've said this upthread but it bears repeating: whether John Terry is a racist or not is NOT the issue in the trial. It is not illegal to be a racist (or even to use racist words, generally speaking).

The issue is whether he committed a racially aggravated public order offence. This isn't some thought crime trial about his secret thoughts, it is about his behaviour. It is not disputed that he did use the words, he admits he did. The only question is, in what context? He says he was repeating an allegation Anton Ferdinand made to him, Anton Ferdinand says not.

hackmum · 12/07/2012 13:27

Eldritch: "The issue is whether he committed a racially aggravated public order offence."

Which is why I wonder why the case was brought. If he'd shouted it in the middle of the street, I could see why it might be considered a public order offence. But on a football pitch? In the middle of a verbally-abusive ding dong with another player? To someone who didn't even hear him say it? How exactly is that a public order offence?

Fluffycloudland77 · 12/07/2012 13:34

Good job cheating on your wife isnt illegal, they'd all be banged up.

EldritchCleavage · 12/07/2012 15:15

Good point hack. I think it must be because thousands of TV viewers saw him say it (I understand it's very clear what is being said on the footage, hence the viewer complaint).

ironman · 12/07/2012 15:33

Have just turned from the trial of John Terry.

John Terry's defence Barrrister said that Rio Ferdinand was not a reliable witness, he then went on to say that his statements had inconsistencies. In other words more holes in it than Swiss Cheese, he pointed out to the court that in 600 games that John Terry had played there had never been any allegations of racist language whatsoever, and that witnesses came forward to say that Terry was normally a calm person.

Council for the defence said that Ferdinand was very aggressive to Terry on the day, and that speech recognition could not be used on him as the camera was to far away to see what was said. Inconsistencies in Rio Ferdinands statements were read out. Other issues were raised to illustrate points of what the defence considered inconsistent.

The Ferdinand family look glum, and at one stage his brother put his head in his hands.

I believe Rio Ferdinand fabricated much of this and then could not go back on it, as he would be sitting in the dock with Terry.

Rio Ferdinand has put Johnn Terry and his family through hell and should be ashamed of himself.

From what I have heard today in the court, if this case was not dismissed I would be very surprised.

The summing up is at 2 p.m. tomorrow.

Nancy66 · 12/07/2012 15:38

I always find the idea of lying, cheating, drug-test dodging Rio Ferdinand trying to take the moral highground rather amusing.

There's a lot of bad bloody between Rio and JT

ThePan · 12/07/2012 15:54

ironman - were you actually there? I ask as you repeatedly get AF's name wrong. You keep calling him Rio. Unless I am reading your posts wrong.

As you are someone who defends racists, this surprises me only a little.

Nancy66 · 12/07/2012 16:22

i assumed from ironman's post that Rio was in court today supporting his brother - maybe not

Nancy66 · 12/07/2012 16:34

...but having checked i see that is not the case. Pan is right Ironman you are saying Rio when you mean Anton

MotionOfTheOcean · 12/07/2012 17:32

Seeing it was a member of the public,an off duty policeman who made a complaint about this to the police,I fail to see how Anton Ferdinand fabricated it.

ironman · 12/07/2012 18:43

Lepan I was there three times this week I don't defend racists.
I don't call you a fascist for wanting to send a man to prison, when you did not see the evidence or attend the trial. How can you be judge and jury on a man you have never met and you did not attend the trial. I don't suppose anyone has told you that jailing someone without proof went out in the Middle Ages.

I apologise for others having to read the above, but some MNs resort to abuse when you don't agree with them and I find that sickening.

I defend free speech. I apologise if I used Rio instead of his brothers name Anton. Both names have come up in court with this case. Anton I'm informed is the brother playing for QPR and Rio plays for Man United.

Nancy 66 Rio was in court (in the public gallery) his brother Anton I did not see. The mother,brother and father left together. One thing I did notice was when the defence said that Ashley Cole was a friend of the family, the father shook his head. Perhaps it will come out later that Ashley Cole is not as friendly with the family as he says. So what you say about bad blood may be true. I have heard that the Ferdinands are in business with John Terry, is this true?

Motheroftheocean. The defence is that Anton is not a reliable witness. The member of the public cannot decide whether Anton is telling the truth or not.
The defence said today that there were inconsistencies in his statements.
As far as the film clip on is concerned both prosecution and defence could not see if he had replied to Anton or was making the remark first. This will play a major part in whether he is found guilty or not in court tomorrow.

As a matter of fact I felt very sorry for the Ferdinands in court as well. They all looked shattered by the defence summing up. It did n to help that photographers outside the court were taking their pictures as they left. Anton Ferdinand will probably be ostracised by other footballers for bringing this case. The matter should never IMO have come to court.

ThePan · 12/07/2012 18:50

ironman - put simply, you defend racists by insisting that racial abuse is a 'speech crime' and should not be prosecuted, it's a 'dangerous path' for this country to be on.

and fwiw I haven't said JT should go to prison - in fact I listed the other sanctions available.

much of what you post is inconsistent, factually wrong and frankly highly implausible and inauthentic. And you seem to have reading and comprehension difficulties.

ironman · 12/07/2012 19:53

Lepan Everything I say is actually factually right. I may have called Anton , Rio but what's as far as it goes.

John Terry is not up in court as a racist and the prosecution have said that to him. "Mr. Terry you are not a racist are you?".

Lepan. Would you like a description of those in court. The Barrister acting for Ferdinand is tall, grey about later fifties and wore a light grey suit today that matched his hair. He is also hales from Scotland.

John Terry. His Barrister on the other hand is shorter (some would say stocky)
he is English and has dark brown hair that curls over the nape of his neck in a rather flattering way. I would say late forties.

The Magistrate in this case is about mid sixties, grey hair and wears glasses. He wore a dark suit today.

Terry came to court wearing a dark grey suit and multi-coloured tie. Oh and he is normally accompanied by a rather large man (his bodyguard). Whose not in court. Terry today sat on his own looking forlorn, behind a large glass partition, which already looked like a cell without bars.

Any man is innocent until found guilty, perhaps this is something you should take into consideration. The court must of course remember this.

If Terry is found guilty tomorrow, I'll eat my hat. If not I'll eat yours!Grin

Anyways I shall be there, in court 2 tomorrow, do try to pop along. Get there early as the press take up most of the seats. Smile

You will even be able to speak to me yourself, as I'll be the one holding a bottle of champagne outside the court if John Terry is acquitted.

Oh and don't let the security staff put you off going in, you don't need a pass for the public gallery!
Cheers! Grin

ThePan · 12/07/2012 20:30

Well, thanks for that entirely superfluous description of the major protagonists, but..that wasn?t what I was wondering about. I was asking ?were you there?? as you had failed to differentiate between the plaintive and his family, despite being there for the time you were. A fairly crucial bit of observation. But perhaps they ?all look the same? and having different names didn?t help you either.Hmm

Re the authenticity and plausibility of your posts, that referred to your other posts, not the court room dynamics at all.
And yes I do identify you as a racist. Your stated view is that racist abuse should not be a crime. Black people being abused should have to just put up with it, as a consequence. Your racism is fairly well clear, despite your attempts to disguise it, which are pretty thin, a la the BNP?
Any more exchange with you over this issue isn?t worth the key-strokes involved.

claig · 12/07/2012 21:20

'And you seem to have reading and comprehension difficulties.'

Are you always this rude, ThePan, or are you just having a bad day? Why don't you lay off the bullying, hectoring approach and stop flinging insults at people and stop accusing people of being inauthentic?

ThePan · 12/07/2012 21:32

oh claig, no - had quite a jolly day fwiw! And also fwiw, there's no 'people' (plural)involved - just one racist, or at least a racists-sympthiser. I don't have to 'bully' - the evidence is there. hth.

claig · 12/07/2012 21:35

Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't make them a racist.