How plausible do we find John Terry's defense?

[Condover]

That he was only repeating words Anton Ferdinand has accused him of saying.

I can't imagine saying those words ever. I'd be very upset to be accused of saying them, but I wouldn't repeat them in my denial, but then I'm not John Terry....

John Terry is a nasty, racist, foul-mouthed yob. He's exactly the kind of footballer that gives football a bad name. He's a good player (unfortunately), but he's overpaid, entitled and I'm not going to repeat all the stuff he's been accused of (and not denied - most of it involving foul-mouthed rants), over the years.

I'd love to see him with a lifetime ban and a massive fine or some other punishment for racial abuse.

Ooh, juneau, give us the details!

It's a complete load of tosh and the fact that one of his footballing mates has rolled up to perjure himself shows just how untouchable the Premier League players think they are. I hope they throw the book at him!

Is having Ashley Cole there a bit like saying 'I'm not a racist, some of my best friends are black'? I think it is about time the FA started being proactive wrt racism, I think it's almost seen as normal, both on the field and on the terraces.

No, I have not been to many trials. I've only sat in on one before. I wanted to go because I felt that if people could go to prison for insults (and they have) I would like to know what went on in the court.

Ten year old children could also end end up in the dock for name calling. Whilst I think it's wrong to insult people about skin colour or whatever. I still think it's very wrong to bring a person to court for what is basically a speech crime.

My neighbour was called a white bastard by another black neighbour. Should the white person and me as a witness have the black man hauled before the courts? I think not.

I think it's a very dangerous road that this country is travelling down.

vigglewiggle How do you know Ashley Cole is perjuring himself, have you spoken to him? Do you know something that I don't.

I agree ironman. I don't think this should have got anywhere near a courtroom. Using racial insults is disgusting but a criminal offence??? Name-calling is ugly, cowardly behaviour but not something that should be dealt with through the legal system IMO.

This case is exactly the sort of case that should be in court. It indicates that no matter how successful and/or wealthy you are, racially abusing someone is not acceptable and should be made public, a criminal offence and open to a public sanction.

So according to ironman and Lotta, being subject to a racist attack should leave the victim to having no redress? That position is astounding, if it isn't some sort of childish wind-up?

I agree with ThePan.

The one way in which Mumsnet has opened my eyes is that it has made me realise that there really are people out there who aren't as disgusted by racism as I am. Most of the people I know are outspoken in their hatred of racism.

I am guilty of believing that the people I know are representative of the population at large.

fwiw, I'd like to see the law go much further regarding verbally abusing someone simply because they are a woman - and using insulting words and behaviours around that sort of abuse.

You have my wholehearted agreement on that too ThePan.

thanks Yama. At the very bottom of considerations we cannot continue to accept really bad behaviour towards other people - it's utterly basic civility,and law courts are an important method of establishing social mores.

I think it is the flimsiest excuse ever.

I just can't imagine saying "I didn't call you a black cunt". I would say "I didn't say that". I just can't imagine the words "black cunt" coming out of my mouth. That doesn't mean JT wouldn't say it, but it just seems implausible.

Also can't believe how many on this thread can't see why it's worse to call someone "a black cunt" than "a cunt".

This has been my most cunt-laden post ever.

"I still think it's very wrong to bring a person to court for what is basically a speech crime."

You dont really mean that do you? If so, am absolutely

'Also can't believe how many on this thread can't see why it's worse to call someone "a black cunt" than "a cunt'

yellow, I agree that the first insult is worse than the former because it's using two foul words (as insults) instead of one. I think misogynistic abuse is just as bad as racist abuse and I find it disturbing and really sad that AF apparently wasn't bothered by being called a 'cunt' because that was to be expected somehow For a lot of people, sexism and misogyny are nowhere near as serious as racism.

Bidisha (who writes for the Guardian) demonstrated this really well in an article a few years ago when she said that virtually everyone would be horrified if someone called her a 'Paki' in the street but the same people would quite likely tell her to get over it if someone call her a 'cunt' or a 'whore'.

But whether any of this belongs in a courtroom, I'm really not sure. I am no fan whatsoever of JT by the way.

I don't really find cunt to be a misogynistic word. People use both sets of genitals as insults - cunt, prick, dick, cock, twat etc.

I have never heard anyone be called a "white prick", however.

yellow, it's not necessarily misogynistic, depends how it's used. When used s an insult, it's usually used to express utter contempt for someone, for someone who is seen to be the lowest of the low. I don't think the other words you listed carry the same weight.

Maybe it depends where you come from.

Cunt is thrown around with impunity in Scotland. Barely raises an eyebrow.

Lotta - it is important that stuff like this appears on the statute book and there is legal sanction. It protects the victim (black, female, disabled, homosexual etc) and gives them a right to live in the same way other people who don't have those same characteristics assume a life free of such abuse.
And it gives a nice loud and tidy message that treating people with their dignity intact is a basic civility.
And giving half the population (female) such protection would give the message to misogynists, racists, disablists, homophobes (often found to be the same sort of person - just unhappy and unpleasant) that their days are numbered. It's just basic culture-setting.

yellow, you're right about how words are used in different parts of the country, hadn't thought of that

ThePan, what you say does make sense, but I just think of the total twit bloke who tweeted racist comments about Fabrice Muamba after his heart attack a few months ago. He got jail time. His comments were pathetic, nasty, cowardly, foul - just awful. I know what you're saying about sending a clear message that racist/misogynistic/homophobic abuse will not be tolerated in a civilised society but I just worry that we as a society are on a slippery slope by locking people up or fining them heavily for making a comment. However horrible that comment may be to most people.

Yes, in Scotland cunt can be used in most sentences of any conversation.

Lotta - I can see what you are saying, I really can. I believe in freedom of speech. I also believe in protecting people from hate speech/crimes.

Well, yes Lotta I see your point too. But it doesn't need to come to imprisonment or fines even. A Conditional Discharge is available, compensation order specific to the victim, a supervision/ probation order if the actions were grave or repeated.
The important thing is society, via courts, would be saying 'it's not on - people shouldn't have to put up with your spreading of disatisfaction ( a bit like school bullies) and your conviction for it is a matter of public record, be reported on and will be used against you IF you do it again'.

I dont think he's innocent, I also dont think our money is well spent on this trial considering rapists get off for much worse due to lack of funds. According to the man I spoke to at the CPS when DH's exp broke the law.

I do think a fine by his club his more appropriate, it doesnt cost us anything then and hit's him harder.

My dh works in the motor trade and hears worse everyday but no-ones on trial for it.

I dont condone racism in anyway.

It's such a tricky one. I would love to live in a society where it is JUST NOT ON to abuse someone based on their age/sex/race/sexuality or anything else they have no choice in. I really don't know what the answer is. I guess each of us can play our own part by challenging narrow-minded crap when we come across it, but as regards changing what is acceptable in society as a whole.......

ThePan, I think you're spot on when you say that someone who is racist is also likely to be misogynistic/homophobic and probably just generally bigoted.