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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Nellodee · 24/04/2025 06:50

Just hazarding a guess here, but regarding the crime statistics, you will have read the original claim, then read someone from your own side debunking it.

in contrast, women on this site (not all, but quite a lot of us with a statistical bent) have read the original claim, read the statistics themselves, participated in requesting the information from the government, campaigned for better information from the government, read every piece debunking the claim from your side, read analyses of the debunking, read every original piece of research on crime rates and every analysis of that research as well, and at the end of this process, come to a conclusion very different from your own.

Nellodee · 24/04/2025 06:53

No, the study I claim did note use sampling rates at all. It used a census, which is the opposite of a sample. It aimed to count the total number of mtf in the country, and the total number of mtf sec offenders in prison vs the total males in the country and the total male sex offenders in prison. Neither of these are samples : they are the entire population in both cases, using the statistical meaning of population.

MrsJamin · 24/04/2025 06:54

We can't just compromise here @FairAdvocate because it's like someone comes into your house, steals your stuff and then wants to strike a deal on divvying it up or selling it back. It wasn't yours to begin with: we want the words "women" and "female" back. They were never yours to have and you stole them. Therefore the peaceful negotiation of how to share these terms are not going your way because we just want them back and for you to go on your merry way. There is no "us" - we have nothing in common with you.

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:54

@FairAdvocate you do realise that of some men are allowed into female spaces, the SSE would not be in play and all men would have to be allowed in, ,making the space mixed sex. If males without a trans identity were excluded, then the service would be open to claims of discrimination. If transwomen are in danger in male spaces, because of men apparently, would you not be in the same danger in unisex spaces, and you’d also put women in danger. Surely the solution is to educate men that some men like dresses and make up and that’s ok too.

OhNoFloyd · 24/04/2025 06:55

In 2008, I worked for a large multinational bank. All of the women on my floor (not many) were rounded up for 2 days of diversity training because one of the men was transitioning to become a woman and would be using our bathrooms from now on.

We all, very quickly, learned not to use the bathrooms on our floor after 4pm when Robert liked to change out of his work clothes and into his evening clothes - which consisted of fishnet stockings and pleather boob tubes. He also liked to look us in the eye whilst he did it.

I was 26 and I knew it was wrong but when we complained we were sent on more diversity training and threatened with being fired. So we stopped using the bathrooms on our floor.

I've shared toilets with countless trans women over the years (I work in IT, it seems to be quite highly populated with trans people) who have done their best to pass, fit in, cause no harm and as a previous poster said, we just get on with it.

But I can't believe you have a female brain, or that you can even truly understand what that means given you've never actually experienced what it means to be female from birth.

I know you believe that you have, but it's just not true... if you even spent a single day being treated as a male in society then you've not experienced your whole life as a female.

All studies aside, you've had the privilege of being treated as a male and that resonates in your posts and your inability to understand that your point of view won't be accepted here. Its such an incredibly male position to take.

I do appreciate that you started this thread with what you thought were the best of intentions, but it comes from a place of wanting to fix what's wrong with women, not offering us what we actually need and in that very act you've proved how totally wrong you actually are about having a female brain at all.

I'm really sorry to hear that you've been a victim of sexual violence. Many of us have.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:55

Can I just make a point to everyone here?

do you all kind of see how I came in and offered serious and thought through conciliations and how most of you jumped down my throat?

I dont say this out of annoyance but can you see what the real issue is?
No one is talking to each other. Everyone is just shouting.
I requested that people here didnt have to call me a woman but please just dont use man. I requested that people here didnt use Trans Identified male and thats happened to. People could have easily just said person, human etc.
Like do you see why this can be so toxic?
I dont even think anything ive said has been agressive, confrontationary or anything like that.
You know im being accused here of being a man but im one of the few here that isnt actually acting like one.
Thank you so much to all the people who came here and genuinely wanted a conversation. I really appriciated it so much and I will try to think on everything that has been said here to improve myself. I also hope that this brought better understanding for others to.
Thank you but I dont think I will make further replies here as Its gotten abit overwhelming.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:57

OhNoFloyd · 24/04/2025 06:55

In 2008, I worked for a large multinational bank. All of the women on my floor (not many) were rounded up for 2 days of diversity training because one of the men was transitioning to become a woman and would be using our bathrooms from now on.

We all, very quickly, learned not to use the bathrooms on our floor after 4pm when Robert liked to change out of his work clothes and into his evening clothes - which consisted of fishnet stockings and pleather boob tubes. He also liked to look us in the eye whilst he did it.

I was 26 and I knew it was wrong but when we complained we were sent on more diversity training and threatened with being fired. So we stopped using the bathrooms on our floor.

I've shared toilets with countless trans women over the years (I work in IT, it seems to be quite highly populated with trans people) who have done their best to pass, fit in, cause no harm and as a previous poster said, we just get on with it.

But I can't believe you have a female brain, or that you can even truly understand what that means given you've never actually experienced what it means to be female from birth.

I know you believe that you have, but it's just not true... if you even spent a single day being treated as a male in society then you've not experienced your whole life as a female.

All studies aside, you've had the privilege of being treated as a male and that resonates in your posts and your inability to understand that your point of view won't be accepted here. Its such an incredibly male position to take.

I do appreciate that you started this thread with what you thought were the best of intentions, but it comes from a place of wanting to fix what's wrong with women, not offering us what we actually need and in that very act you've proved how totally wrong you actually are about having a female brain at all.

I'm really sorry to hear that you've been a victim of sexual violence. Many of us have.

For the record. I never said there was anything wrong with women I.e myself.
I do understand much more than youve given me credit for and I urge you to put yourself in amongst a crowd of transgender people and say these things because then you will appricaite just how difficult it is to do something like this.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 06:58

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 05:31

See the problem with this specifcally: 'many of us consider that we don't have have any kind of gender identity'
Is that it just doesnt meet up to scientific psychological understanding that goes back quite a long time with many studies on this subject. It also exposes a problem that most people dont also realise in that it means sexual identity doesnt exist either as the same studies and evidence are mostly the same for both gender identity and sexual indentity.

So let me put this another way and maybe you might gain a different point of view: If everyone you ever heard about was heterosexual you wouldnlt know what homosexual was. So youd think that sexual indentity doesnt actually exist as youve never actually had to question it. The problem of course is that if you are homosexual you have questioned it and youd realise what sex you are doesnt always allign with what sex youre attracted to.

A similar and more misunderstood thing happens with transgender people and gender identity and sadly we go through the same process homosexual people do which is not being believed. And amazingly in a very similar way that reflects how we view sex in our culture. Male homosexuals and Transgender women who were Male/Men are treated with disgust while lesbians and transgender males are treated with erasure.

While I do understand you fully allign with your birth sex and your mind within that sex a few of arent able to do that and have to follow a path that is sadly often filled with just awful experiences. So I think your definition is valid but I also, as I said in my intial message, think mine is aswell and I have tried my best to live up to what your defintion is. Think of it in a similar way to a person moving to the UK say from India and trying really hard to assimilate to british. Some will say they will never be british but thankfully not all of us do this. Incidentially, my boyfriends hertiage comes from that area of the world and we often liken our experiences in the culture as similar which is 'never quite being enough'.

I don't agree with this analogy. Same and opposite sex relationships are objectively real and we observe ourselves and other people having them.

I also don't agree with the analogy about Indian people becoming British, because an Indian person can become British. Humans can't change sex though.

Nobody can explain what gender identity actually is in a way that makes any sense at all. It all comes back to the difference between sex and gender. Sex is objectively real and can be observed throughout the animal kingdom. No mammal has ever changed sex, however you might feel about yourself. Gender is a social construct which means different things to different people and in different times and places. It is largely based in harmful and regressive stereotypes - the same harmful and regressive stereotypes that generations of feminists have been fighting to liberate women FROM.

So do I identify with "gender"? No, I don't, and I don't understand why anyone would.

And I don't believe it is possible to "identify as" the opposite sex, because, as I said above, humans cannot change sex. You either are female, or you are not. I am, and you are not. I do not "align with" my sex, I just am female.

I do not say this to be unkind. I know you want to be female. But it can never be true.

And I need to be able to describe myself and my reality. If people like you are allowed to redefine the words "woman" and "female" to mean something different which includes you, we lose the ability to describe the original group that we are members of.

I note that you didn't engage with my point about colonising language. This is of vital importance to women.

So you say that you don't want to be referred to as a man.

Well, a man is just a male person, and you are a male person. It's not a value judgement, just a fact. I think it's unreasonable to expect people not to use basic words according to their usual meanings just because a small group of people don't like it. Language is a tool for communication and it only works when we are broadly using the same words to mean the same things.

NumberTheory · 24/04/2025 06:58

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:45

'because your body, regardless of any attempt at cosmetic changes, is still male. The reproductive burden is one that seeps through every cell in our bodies and has profound costs, compounded by a patriarchal society, that we can’t simply choose to experience or not. You do not and cannot know it.'

I mean theres a few things here that stick out to me. My changes havent been cosmetic but biological. I actually find the differences between the male and female largnyx to be most interesting by the way. Basically a tiny flap of skin makes the difference in pitch. Also my body isnt paticulary male anymore. Like really not male anymore. Maybe ill never be cis body material to some but I think I look okay. Lets not body shame here! Thats a small joke.

As for my cells they are full of estrogen. a blood test would confirm that and my testorerone levels are actually lower than the average cisgender/female at birth woman.

Trust me, I suffer under the patriarchal society just the same.

Other than the hormones that’s all still fundamentally cosmetic. Even the hormones will not have changed a single cell in your body to female. And absolutely none of it changes your relationship to the reproductive burden of our species.

Many men suffer under the patriarchy, a theme of much feminist discourse is that the patriarchy isn’t that great for most men, especially those who do not conform to male archetypes. But not in the same way women do.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 24/04/2025 06:58

You know im being accused here of being a man but im one of the few here that isnt actually acting like one.

But the very demands that we don't view you as a man is the epitome of male entitlement

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:58

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:55

Can I just make a point to everyone here?

do you all kind of see how I came in and offered serious and thought through conciliations and how most of you jumped down my throat?

I dont say this out of annoyance but can you see what the real issue is?
No one is talking to each other. Everyone is just shouting.
I requested that people here didnt have to call me a woman but please just dont use man. I requested that people here didnt use Trans Identified male and thats happened to. People could have easily just said person, human etc.
Like do you see why this can be so toxic?
I dont even think anything ive said has been agressive, confrontationary or anything like that.
You know im being accused here of being a man but im one of the few here that isnt actually acting like one.
Thank you so much to all the people who came here and genuinely wanted a conversation. I really appriciated it so much and I will try to think on everything that has been said here to improve myself. I also hope that this brought better understanding for others to.
Thank you but I dont think I will make further replies here as Its gotten abit overwhelming.

Do you see how you and here, lectured women, compared us to Nazis, minimised our concerns, belittled us, and are upset that we didn’t agree with you? Should we be thrilled another male has come to tell us we’re wrong to fight for our rights? Did you expect fawning admiration? Why? Because you thought that’s what women do. Sorry mate #bekind is sooooo 2024.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:59

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 24/04/2025 06:58

You know im being accused here of being a man but im one of the few here that isnt actually acting like one.

But the very demands that we don't view you as a man is the epitome of male entitlement

Thanks for further proving my point x

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:59

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:58

Do you see how you and here, lectured women, compared us to Nazis, minimised our concerns, belittled us, and are upset that we didn’t agree with you? Should we be thrilled another male has come to tell us we’re wrong to fight for our rights? Did you expect fawning admiration? Why? Because you thought that’s what women do. Sorry mate #bekind is sooooo 2024.

Go in the transgender UK reddit and do what ive done here. Start a conversation. Youll see how hard it is to do.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:01

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:57

For the record. I never said there was anything wrong with women I.e myself.
I do understand much more than youve given me credit for and I urge you to put yourself in amongst a crowd of transgender people and say these things because then you will appricaite just how difficult it is to do something like this.

Why should our rights be conditional on transgender people not feeling sad?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:02

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:59

Go in the transgender UK reddit and do what ive done here. Start a conversation. Youll see how hard it is to do.

We would get called names, threatened and banned.

AmateurNoun · 24/04/2025 07:02

I'm still curious as to what is so "complicated" about using gender-neutral facilities if they were readily available in addition to single-sex spaces.

SpidersAreShitheads · 24/04/2025 07:03

We have been erased.

We have been spoken over.

The positions set aside for women have been handed over to trans women, many of whom who have benefitted from a lifetime of male privilege.

Women have been assaulted in prisons, hospitals, toilets. In spaces that were supposed to be classed as single sex. The people doing the assaulting were trans-identifying individuals who had a male body.

I'm genuinely and truly sorry for any discomfort you're not feeling. I appreciate yours is not the easiest path. I don't know you, but you might be a genuine person who means no harm to women. But you might not. And therein lies the problem.

It's bad enough that no one cared about our feelings, our dignity, and our privacy. I mean, we all remember women who had been raped being told to "reframe their trauma".

But when it comes to our safety, I'm sorry, but no. One woman harmed is one woman too many.

The trans community needs to campaign for its own solutions that don't trample on the rights of other groups. I understand that's difficult but women have been collateral up until now, and enough is enough.

There is no biological basis for a male-bodied individual feeling "like a woman". I support and respect your right to live however you want, and I wish you all the happiness in the world.

However, biological men who transition retain the same rates of offending. And studies suggest there is a higher proportion of sexual predators among the trans community. There's plenty of non-scientific, anecdotal evidence to back that up, but for now, here's the stats.

We need to be able to talk about this without being shut down as transphobic or bigoted. However you think you feel, your biology is a fact that gives you a physical advantage over biological women, and that means we are not the same. Sorry.

Conciliatory Conversation On gender
BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 24/04/2025 07:03

A conversation is a two way thing. You are not listening to us. You have your view and you don't care that we just don't agree. The only thing you want is our capitulation to your demands.

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 07:03

Why would I go to a trans forum? I am not trans. To do that would be encroaching in a space that is not for me and my female socialisation would make that feel very wrong. It would be the same as if I went to Andy’s man club and claimed they had to let me in even if that made some of the men uncomfortable. Why would any decent person force their way into a space that was not for them and cause distress and discomfort to the people that space was designed for? Who does that?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:03

AmateurNoun · 24/04/2025 07:02

I'm still curious as to what is so "complicated" about using gender-neutral facilities if they were readily available in addition to single-sex spaces.

I actually don't see what is so complicated about using the facilities that already exist for members of their own sex.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:03

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 07:02

We would get called names, threatened and banned.

Edited

Exactly. But yet, Im here and I had the courage to do it all the same. And we all need that courage. We really do. Im tired of hatred.

OP posts:
BabyOrca · 24/04/2025 07:03

Way back when all this started, when the conversations were still benign, why didn't trans women seek support/align themselves with feminist groups? Why did they choose LGB groups?

EmpressaurusKitty · 24/04/2025 07:04

I urge you to put yourself in amongst a crowd of transgender people and say these things because then you will appricaite just how difficult it is to do something like this.

I’ve been surrounded by a crowd of yelling transgender people. Fortunately the police turned up because the three of us were very scared.

You might not be aware that when Venice Allan organised one of the earliest events to talk about this, she invited Stonewall to give their viewpoint. Instead of engaging the TRAs bullied the venue into cancelling, beat up a 60-year-old woman on the way to the new venue & then stood round it shouting BURN IT DOWN! I know because I was there.

How’s that for conciliation?

RedHelenB · 24/04/2025 07:04

I suppose I reject the idea of male and female brains.

Needspaceforlego · 24/04/2025 07:05

But we all know the issue isn't just toilets, it's Changing rooms,
hospital wards,
prisons,
domestic abuse shelters,
rape crisis centers,
military barracks (wtf),
youth hostels,
girl guide tents,
single sex beauty couses, (see Isla Bryson)
boarding schools,
childrens homes,
Female being searched by trans police
Female police being asked to search trans
Lesbian social spaces and dating sites
Women's hobby groups
Women's festivals,

Female's sports, males have a different skeleton shape, the biggest man will be
bigger and stronger than the biggest woman. It's not fair sports to have male born people there. And nor is it safe.
Even female race horses 🐎 carry lighter weights than males in handicap races.

I just don't see how there can be a 'middle' ground. You are male, wear what you like but it won't make you female. We as a society don't encourage anorexic thinking nor should we continue to encourage 'born in the wrong body' thoughts.
Your body is you. Treat it as a temple.

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