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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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17
EmpressaurusKitty · 24/04/2025 06:30

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:21

No, I mean no one wins.
Things shift and change. Youre winning today, youre losing tommorow.
The ECHR will likely just have another case like they did in 2002 which will make whatever law/guideline change that happens in the UK incompatible with the Human Rights Court set up to basically fight Nazis.
A real concilliation is the only thing thats going to make this stop

In other words ‘We’re not going to stop until you women give in.’

I volunteered for Stonewall back in the days when they were an LGB rights organisation. I hear they’re in a lot of trouble now & I'm glad, because I can never forgive them for going homophobic.

If Stonewall and Press for Change and all the others had campaigned for third spaces, right from the start, and for transpeople to be respected for who they are instead of being shoehorned into the opposite sex, we could have had that conciliation you’re talking about ages ago and women would have supported it.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:31

KatyaKabanova · 24/04/2025 06:28

It does not make "my perspective" "more awkward".
I have no "perspective". I know about the Holocaust. I have read about it widely, researched it, and spoken to survivors. I am well aware of the entire process, so please do not patronise me about this topic.
If you want to inform yourself about Weimar and Nazi Germany I recommend that you read the works of Ian Kershaw, a reputable historian, as a starting point.

Thats fine. Im sure you are very well read.
I also offer the book 'The Dark Charisma of Adolf Hitler'. Its a very good but hard read. Also fun fact, the person behing the counter at the book shop I bought it from gave me a hard look after she saw the title lol.

OP posts:
sanluca · 24/04/2025 06:32

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:21

No, I mean no one wins.
Things shift and change. Youre winning today, youre losing tommorow.
The ECHR will likely just have another case like they did in 2002 which will make whatever law/guideline change that happens in the UK incompatible with the Human Rights Court set up to basically fight Nazis.
A real concilliation is the only thing thats going to make this stop

I am actually hoping someone will take this to the European Court. And that we will get to argue that changing your sex marker on legal documentation is in breach of womens UN human rights articles 2, 3, 12 and 21. And that a different solution needs to be found.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:34

EmpressaurusKitty · 24/04/2025 06:30

In other words ‘We’re not going to stop until you women give in.’

I volunteered for Stonewall back in the days when they were an LGB rights organisation. I hear they’re in a lot of trouble now & I'm glad, because I can never forgive them for going homophobic.

If Stonewall and Press for Change and all the others had campaigned for third spaces, right from the start, and for transpeople to be respected for who they are instead of being shoehorned into the opposite sex, we could have had that conciliation you’re talking about ages ago and women would have supported it.

I mean I think there is large aspects of the trans community who feel that sentiment right now and from thier perspective I see why even if I dont share it.

I think its easy to give yourself a narrative that transgender people never really did anything but the reality is we have always fought for LGBT rights. I understand that sexual identity and gender identity sit on the same evidence. If we lose one then we will lose the other.

OP posts:
Nellodee · 24/04/2025 06:34

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:24

No, ive read that stat that was submitted about offending rates and the maths was quite wildly wrong.
Most actual studies usually rate transgender people as that one of the most risk of SA.

As for the second part me personally? No I dont get misgendered or seen as a man in any aspect of my life. I go what matches me and where I am most safe.

The maths is not perfect, because the data is not perfect. The fact the data is not available is not down to a lack campaigning on our part, indeed many women on this site are specifically campaigning for better data and involved in that process. I did not ask you to critique the data, but to provide your own data which showed mtf offender patterns match those of women. You won’t, because it doesn’t exist. You just answered the first part, by talking about research into how likely mtf are to be victims, ignoring the fact my point was about how likely they were to be offenders.

And for the second part, you think you have answered no, but we read your answer as “yes, because I think I am a special case”.

Apologies for the Squid Game quote, but we’ve played these games before.

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:35

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:30

This kind of conversation isnt one im looking to have. But thank you

And the conversation I and many other women was not looking to have was that we would have to explain to make people why women needed single sex spaces, and to have to suffer threats, violence and intimidation to try and keep those spaces. You have stated you’ll still use female spaces even though you are not entitled to, and you have come on here to tell women so. Were you expecting us to agree with you? Have you seen what women have been through on this issue?

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:35

sanluca · 24/04/2025 06:32

I am actually hoping someone will take this to the European Court. And that we will get to argue that changing your sex marker on legal documentation is in breach of womens UN human rights articles 2, 3, 12 and 21. And that a different solution needs to be found.

Yeah I mean thats just not going to win. If anything the UN is not really in agreement with the current state of Transgender rights in the UK. Any push further will probably have a bad outcome for your POV.

OP posts:
AmateurNoun · 24/04/2025 06:36

I think thats complicated right? I dont honestly know what I'd do.
It depends if I was getting weird male attention at the time maybe?

In what sense is it complicated?

Let's say you have women's cubicles, men's cuticles and urinals, single occupancy disabled and single occupancy gender-neutral. Would you not use the gender-neutral in this scenario?

Women are not here to act as a human shield from weird male attention.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:38

Nellodee · 24/04/2025 06:34

The maths is not perfect, because the data is not perfect. The fact the data is not available is not down to a lack campaigning on our part, indeed many women on this site are specifically campaigning for better data and involved in that process. I did not ask you to critique the data, but to provide your own data which showed mtf offender patterns match those of women. You won’t, because it doesn’t exist. You just answered the first part, by talking about research into how likely mtf are to be victims, ignoring the fact my point was about how likely they were to be offenders.

And for the second part, you think you have answered no, but we read your answer as “yes, because I think I am a special case”.

Apologies for the Squid Game quote, but we’ve played these games before.

Okay so in relation to the Offending rates of transgender women being the same as men. Its just bad Maths:

Really bad math due to sample size biases, they are taking roughly 30 million for both Men and Women then cutting that down to 48,000 for trans women people.
It would be better to use a small group of similar size for comparisons.
——————
Also to point out:
92 / 48,000 = 0.0019%
So it’s just them trying to present data in a biased way.

OP posts:
NumberTheory · 24/04/2025 06:39

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:03

Look to be honest, I dont really want to get into a fully technical discussion about studies here. Ive seen quite a few that I have been convinced by if you havent thats fine.

But I do want to reply to this: 'the continuing strongest factor in the poorer outcomes we get from society, is so strongly linked to our physiology and the reproductive burden it supports. You do not share it.'

I do want to highlight here that in most statisics transgender people are usually high percentage victims of crimes like Sexual Assualt. Im also a part of those numbers. Not only do I understand poorer outcomes; I fully share them and I think that by acknowledging that more than one group understands what its like we dont take anything away from anyone. My boyfriend for example reiceves racist abuse all the time. I dont therefore tell him that he will never understand what its like to reiceve poorer outcomes in society. Espesically when racial hate crimes are always so high.

I didn’t tell you you couldn’t experience poorer outcomes than some men. But (assuming you are white) just as you cannot really know what it is like to be black in a racist, white dominated society, you cannot know what it is like to be a woman in a male dominated society (or even a female dominated one) because your body, regardless of any attempt at cosmetic changes, is still male. The reproductive burden is one that seeps through every cell in our bodies and has profound costs, compounded by a patriarchal society, that we can’t simply choose to experience or not. You do not and cannot know it.

KatyaKabanova · 24/04/2025 06:39

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:31

Thats fine. Im sure you are very well read.
I also offer the book 'The Dark Charisma of Adolf Hitler'. Its a very good but hard read. Also fun fact, the person behing the counter at the book shop I bought it from gave me a hard look after she saw the title lol.

I've also read that book. In fact, I have quite the library. It is a horrific yet fascinating period in human history, a journey into the abyss.
I'm sure you've watched "The Nazis: A Warning from History", based on Kershaw's work. Excellent.

InfoSecInTheCity · 24/04/2025 06:39

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 05:43

Um I mean, my own research on this topic is still on going as I think it is in general on this subject.
However a german court did recognise that transgender people were victims of the Haulocaust a few years back which I thought was pretty landmark.
There obviously wont be many cases as there just isnt many of us in general anyway. But really I think even one or two is still disgusting.
https://mjhnyc.org/events/transgender-experiences-in-weimar-and-nazi-germany/

Its also worth mentioning that people who were really trans women were likely documented as Homosexual as The Nazis didnt believe that gender identity was valid or real and deemed them all men and homosexual. So thats just what makes this so much harder to look into.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/central-european-history/article/transgender-life-and-persecution-under-the-nazi-state-gutachten-on-the-vollbrecht-case/0779A24B130C4F0CA64DB639FA6DBF46

Honestly, I find alot of it hard to read through as it obviously effects me in a more profound way if I can say that.

While you are doing your research, see if you can find any group/community/race etc of people who were present in any of the countries affected that WASN’T hurt by Hitler’s regime. I appreciate that the stories of Trans individuals resonates more clearly with you and so becomes your focus, but the Third Reich was pretty much universally against anyone who wasn’t with them, so there are examples of every community having some people who were victims.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:40

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:26

So you came on a feminist board to lecture women, call them Nazis and tell them you’re just gonna do what you want anyway? Why? Do you not have any hobbies? Have you tried Warhammer? Or DIY?

Im sorry you see it this way, I dont feel this is what ive done. Its hard to keep up with several people replying.
I actually like drawing life art.

OP posts:
Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:41

This “ conciliatory conversation”. You do know a conversation is a two way street? You’re supposed to listen too. It just seems time you’re trying to lecture and berate women as to why they were wrong to fight for their rights, I mean, as a member of the LGBT community, surely you should be thrilled that sex is now defined as biological. It gives gay and lesbian people protection from discrimination and clarifies what those terms mean in law. It also gives transmen maternity and abortion rights. If the judgement had gone the other way, they would have lost those rights. So some big wins there right?

EmpressaurusKitty · 24/04/2025 06:41

I understand that sexual identity and gender identity sit on the same evidence. If we lose one then we will lose the other.

If you mean sexual orientation, then no. To quote JK Rowling, ‘If sex isn’t real, there’s no same sex attraction.’

When I came out, around the millennium, there were lesbian bars, book groups, walking groups, all sorts & it was a given that they were all single sex. Now, the only lesbian groups I know of have had to go underground to keep the males out.

Not to mention Nancy Kelley comparing being exclusively same sex attracted to sexual racism or the likes of Serano & McKinnon declaring their expectations that lesbians should embrace penis. Gender ideology is intrinsically homophobic.

Nellodee · 24/04/2025 06:44

No, it was them comparing offending rates of men, women, and mtf. It does not make sense to use small samples when rates are small.

Four example, if you were comparing rates of lukemia in males v females, you would not take a sample of 100, because it would be highly unlikely to get any positive cases in either sample.

Rates of conviction for sexual offences are, sadly, very low, so we are looking, across all genders, at low numbers here.

Rates of offending are, however, much higher.

The comparison, not the raw percentage, is key.

Awumminnscotland · 24/04/2025 06:45

OP you're not the first trans identified male to come on here and mansplain why you're right and Woman just haven't understood yet.
Have you or will you start campaigning for 3rd spaces? Women on here have been called transphobic for even suggesting it as an option. Women are not expectrd to validate what you think by allowing you into their spaces.
Please go and start a conversation with the men who need to accept you as you are. This is not a Women's problem.
Women have had enough of being told they're wrong.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:45

NumberTheory · 24/04/2025 06:39

I didn’t tell you you couldn’t experience poorer outcomes than some men. But (assuming you are white) just as you cannot really know what it is like to be black in a racist, white dominated society, you cannot know what it is like to be a woman in a male dominated society (or even a female dominated one) because your body, regardless of any attempt at cosmetic changes, is still male. The reproductive burden is one that seeps through every cell in our bodies and has profound costs, compounded by a patriarchal society, that we can’t simply choose to experience or not. You do not and cannot know it.

Edited

'because your body, regardless of any attempt at cosmetic changes, is still male. The reproductive burden is one that seeps through every cell in our bodies and has profound costs, compounded by a patriarchal society, that we can’t simply choose to experience or not. You do not and cannot know it.'

I mean theres a few things here that stick out to me. My changes havent been cosmetic but biological. I actually find the differences between the male and female largnyx to be most interesting by the way. Basically a tiny flap of skin makes the difference in pitch. Also my body isnt paticulary male anymore. Like really not male anymore. Maybe ill never be cis body material to some but I think I look okay. Lets not body shame here! Thats a small joke.

As for my cells they are full of estrogen. a blood test would confirm that and my testorerone levels are actually lower than the average cisgender/female at birth woman.

Trust me, I suffer under the patriarchal society just the same.

OP posts:
EastCoastDweller · 24/04/2025 06:46

@FairAdvocate

If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man?

No. You are not and never will be a woman. We have seen where pandering to your delusions/mental illness have got us and we are done with it. Go and talk to your fellow men about them accepting you in their spaces.

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution

You are not a woman. As a woman my priority is to ensure that women’s rights and spaces are now reinstated. Feel free to help. You could have spent the last many years campaigning for your own spaces and provisions. You didn’t.

I haven’t read the rest of your posts. I have other priorities . For example, getting men removed from all the women’s spaces they have colonised. Getting their sports records ‘as women’ erased and replaced with the rightful winners. Getting their prize money paid. Making sure businesses and public service providers comply with the law. Getting the police to remove non hate crimes from women’s records, and so on and on. Making sure that children are never given drugs or surgery to prevent their proper physical and mental development.

Maybe you could work to ensure those who have been harmed get proper medical and psychiatric care and compensation.

Basically clearing up the mess you have created. Please don’t waste any more of our time.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:46

KatyaKabanova · 24/04/2025 06:39

I've also read that book. In fact, I have quite the library. It is a horrific yet fascinating period in human history, a journey into the abyss.
I'm sure you've watched "The Nazis: A Warning from History", based on Kershaw's work. Excellent.

Ill definitley have a read, thanks!

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:47

EastCoastDweller · 24/04/2025 06:46

@FairAdvocate

If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man?

No. You are not and never will be a woman. We have seen where pandering to your delusions/mental illness have got us and we are done with it. Go and talk to your fellow men about them accepting you in their spaces.

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution

You are not a woman. As a woman my priority is to ensure that women’s rights and spaces are now reinstated. Feel free to help. You could have spent the last many years campaigning for your own spaces and provisions. You didn’t.

I haven’t read the rest of your posts. I have other priorities . For example, getting men removed from all the women’s spaces they have colonised. Getting their sports records ‘as women’ erased and replaced with the rightful winners. Getting their prize money paid. Making sure businesses and public service providers comply with the law. Getting the police to remove non hate crimes from women’s records, and so on and on. Making sure that children are never given drugs or surgery to prevent their proper physical and mental development.

Maybe you could work to ensure those who have been harmed get proper medical and psychiatric care and compensation.

Basically clearing up the mess you have created. Please don’t waste any more of our time.

I do feel Ive responded to something similar already so me answering this woudlnlt really bring much to the table

OP posts:
Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:47

@FairAdvocate hahahahahahahaha no. You cannot change sex. Sorry but that is the immutable truth. The fact you’re on here lecturing women on why they should give up their rights demonstrates that.

EmpressaurusKitty · 24/04/2025 06:47

If you genuinely want to be conciliatory, I wouldn’t use offensive terms like cisgender.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:48

Awumminnscotland · 24/04/2025 06:45

OP you're not the first trans identified male to come on here and mansplain why you're right and Woman just haven't understood yet.
Have you or will you start campaigning for 3rd spaces? Women on here have been called transphobic for even suggesting it as an option. Women are not expectrd to validate what you think by allowing you into their spaces.
Please go and start a conversation with the men who need to accept you as you are. This is not a Women's problem.
Women have had enough of being told they're wrong.

I havent said any of that. All of that energy I think has come from the way youve read what I wrote.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:49

Nellodee · 24/04/2025 06:44

No, it was them comparing offending rates of men, women, and mtf. It does not make sense to use small samples when rates are small.

Four example, if you were comparing rates of lukemia in males v females, you would not take a sample of 100, because it would be highly unlikely to get any positive cases in either sample.

Rates of conviction for sexual offences are, sadly, very low, so we are looking, across all genders, at low numbers here.

Rates of offending are, however, much higher.

The comparison, not the raw percentage, is key.

Yes the problem is the thing you have qouted does use a small sample size and compounds it.
It genuinely has issues.

OP posts:
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