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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:12

Nellodee · 24/04/2025 06:10

Is the robust research the one which divided men into trans/not trans, but did not think to divide gay/straight for the analysis? Or one of the ones looking at proportions of grey/white matter which do not, between them, find consistent results? Or one which selects a single trait, and doesn’t look at multiple measurements which would undermine that categorisation? Does it ignore the plasticity of all human brains? We have read them all. I can’t be bothered to read them and criticise them again, and I may be misremembering some, but the bottom line is, we have been there, we have done that, and we do not agree with you on the science.

It is, sadly, very common for people to visit these boards and severely underestimate the collective knowledge of the incredible women here. Our female brains are the brains of lawyers, statisticians, philosophers, geneticists, poets, teachers, doctors and many more. The feminist board of mumsnet is one of the most erudite and impressive internet communities out there.

'Our female brains'
I dont think you meant to admit that one lol

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FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:13

TimeForATerf · 24/04/2025 05:53

I just read pages of self absorbed male entitlement here.

I wish you the best but I won’t indulge you. Maybe try Reddit?

How would reddit help me start a conversation?
And how do your words help anyone?

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FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:15

BabyOrca · 24/04/2025 06:01

I am begging you: please channel your intelligence into talking to your fellow trans community.
You understand they are the ones ruining it fir you right? What are you going to do about it?

Yes I am trying to. I honestly am thinking about how I even start.
Ive already been called a traitor, a bio esstialist and so on.
And then I come here and I get similar words of abuse.
I do feel that both sides often dont show the best of themselves and truly want to solve an issue.

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Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:15

@FairAdvocate you don’t understand the exclusion? Why?
you know most shops and services have a door saying staff only? Well, that’s cos only staff can go through there. Everyone else is excluded. That’s not discrimination. That’s for good reasons. Usually safety and privacy. And to prevent crimes being committed.
Now apply that reasoning to female spaces, with females as the staff and males as the general public and there you go. I’ve cleared up your confusion. My act of kindness is achieved 😇😇😇.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:18

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:15

@FairAdvocate you don’t understand the exclusion? Why?
you know most shops and services have a door saying staff only? Well, that’s cos only staff can go through there. Everyone else is excluded. That’s not discrimination. That’s for good reasons. Usually safety and privacy. And to prevent crimes being committed.
Now apply that reasoning to female spaces, with females as the staff and males as the general public and there you go. I’ve cleared up your confusion. My act of kindness is achieved 😇😇😇.

Edited

I mean it solves the issue if you ignore that transgender people exist sure.
But, we do. So obviously thats what this has been about.
Neither can side can ever truly win I dont think so i dont know why we all keep trying to

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NumberTheory · 24/04/2025 06:18

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:08

I think the real issue with this, as it often is the case, is that even if you dont see me as a woman im still not a man. So relating Sex crimes done by men onto women either makes me a victim myself or not part of it.

I dont understand all this exclusion. Its the one thing I can never understand. I understand the fear to be fair though. I think I have answered the point of 'males entering into the spaces' fairly well initially and its obviously why I made concilliations around certain trans rights targets and why I think they dont understand the sensitvities that sorround womens history and experience enough.

What you don’t seem to be facing here is that when we talk about women’s vulnerability to male sexual violence we are talking about YOU being a risk to US.

We don’t want to keep you out of women’s spaces because we think it’s somehow wrong to protect you from men who want to assault you. We want to keep you out of women’s spaces because, in this respect, the evidence points quite clearly to transwomen being just as much a risk to women as any man.

You as an individual may not be a risk. Just as many men as individuals aren’t a risk. But the point of single sex spaces is that we can’t sieve out the good men from the bad.

BabyOrca · 24/04/2025 06:18

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:18

I mean it solves the issue if you ignore that transgender people exist sure.
But, we do. So obviously thats what this has been about.
Neither can side can ever truly win I dont think so i dont know why we all keep trying to

We are winning actually

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:19

KatyaKabanova · 24/04/2025 05:52

Please, please,do not start to use the Holocaust as any kind of evidence to support your claims.
Millions of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled and the mentally ill were enslaved and murdered as they were not part of the Ubermensch.
It is not comparable. In the least.

I mean I dont feel that the erasure of the Trasgender victims of the Haulocaust is in fitting with decent soicety. These people lived as who they were and died for it and even if it makes your perspective more awkward I will continue to try to honour thier memory.

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DrJump · 24/04/2025 06:20

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:18

I mean it solves the issue if you ignore that transgender people exist sure.
But, we do. So obviously thats what this has been about.
Neither can side can ever truly win I dont think so i dont know why we all keep trying to

But you can exist as a man and wear what you like, have a job that you like, call yourself a name you like, love who you like. That’s all I want for women and men. That our sex doesn’t define our behaviour or our lives, that we can all be safe and enjoy life.

Nellodee · 24/04/2025 06:20

Do you acknowledge that transwomen commit sex crimes at a rate equal or higher than that of non trans men? That’s as a category, they are at least as dangerous as those you would call men? If this is not the case, we challenge you to bring us data showing that mtf offending rates match those of women, rather than their own sex.

And have I got it right that you fully comprehend that huge amounts of women do not consider that you are a woman, but that you intend on inserting yourself into single sex spaces despite knowing they do not want you there, because you feel that you are right and they are wrong?

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:21

BabyOrca · 24/04/2025 06:18

We are winning actually

No, I mean no one wins.
Things shift and change. Youre winning today, youre losing tommorow.
The ECHR will likely just have another case like they did in 2002 which will make whatever law/guideline change that happens in the UK incompatible with the Human Rights Court set up to basically fight Nazis.
A real concilliation is the only thing thats going to make this stop

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AmateurNoun · 24/04/2025 06:21

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:08

I think the real issue with this, as it often is the case, is that even if you dont see me as a woman im still not a man. So relating Sex crimes done by men onto women either makes me a victim myself or not part of it.

I dont understand all this exclusion. Its the one thing I can never understand. I understand the fear to be fair though. I think I have answered the point of 'males entering into the spaces' fairly well initially and its obviously why I made concilliations around certain trans rights targets and why I think they dont understand the sensitvities that sorround womens history and experience enough.

You can't identify out of being part of that group. Even if you have not committed sexual assault/rape, members of your biological sex are still responsible for 98%/100% of those crimes respectively.

And when Ministry of Justice figures show that 45% of transpeople in prisons are there for sex offences, we can't pretend that transpeople are not also capable of these crimes.

You say you don't understand "all this exclusion", but this is basic safeguarding.

You want some males to be allowed into women's single sex spaces. Do you agree that this will result in any increased risk of rape/sexual assault for women? if so, how many additional rapes/sexual assaults are acceptable to you?

BabyOrca · 24/04/2025 06:23

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:21

No, I mean no one wins.
Things shift and change. Youre winning today, youre losing tommorow.
The ECHR will likely just have another case like they did in 2002 which will make whatever law/guideline change that happens in the UK incompatible with the Human Rights Court set up to basically fight Nazis.
A real concilliation is the only thing thats going to make this stop

No. It's over. That's because we make up 51% of the global population. We are the majority and we're telling you no.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:24

Nellodee · 24/04/2025 06:20

Do you acknowledge that transwomen commit sex crimes at a rate equal or higher than that of non trans men? That’s as a category, they are at least as dangerous as those you would call men? If this is not the case, we challenge you to bring us data showing that mtf offending rates match those of women, rather than their own sex.

And have I got it right that you fully comprehend that huge amounts of women do not consider that you are a woman, but that you intend on inserting yourself into single sex spaces despite knowing they do not want you there, because you feel that you are right and they are wrong?

No, ive read that stat that was submitted about offending rates and the maths was quite wildly wrong.
Most actual studies usually rate transgender people as that one of the most risk of SA.

As for the second part me personally? No I dont get misgendered or seen as a man in any aspect of my life. I go what matches me and where I am most safe.

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Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:24

@FairAdvocate what was confusing about my explaination? Transgender people would totally be included. Male transpeople, like every other male, would not be allowed through the door. Female transpeople, like every other female, would be. And yes that includes even the imaginary six foot bearded muscle bound transman.

DrJump · 24/04/2025 06:24

Stop trying to make women out to be nazi’s. It beyond lazy, its so unbelievably rude and unhelpful. For fuck sake!

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:25

BabyOrca · 24/04/2025 06:23

No. It's over. That's because we make up 51% of the global population. We are the majority and we're telling you no.

I mean thats a nice piece of rhetoric but it doesnt really fit with the specifics

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AmateurNoun · 24/04/2025 06:25

Here's a question OP.

If there were gender-neutral facilities everywhere in addition to single sex, would you be happy using that third space?

If not, why not? Why would you insist on using the women's space?

If yes, then why not fight for those additional spaces?

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:26

DrJump · 24/04/2025 06:24

Stop trying to make women out to be nazi’s. It beyond lazy, its so unbelievably rude and unhelpful. For fuck sake!

No, youre putting words into my mouth.
I think that spreading awareness of transgender victims of the haulocaust was relevant to a piece of the conversation thread on page 1.

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Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:26

So you came on a feminist board to lecture women, call them Nazis and tell them you’re just gonna do what you want anyway? Why? Do you not have any hobbies? Have you tried Warhammer? Or DIY?

Nellodee · 24/04/2025 06:27

Of course I meant to admit “our female brains”. Our brains are female because they reside in women. That is the whole and complete reason that they are female brains. Our brains are female because we are women. We are women because our bodies are designed to produce large gametes, even though they may not fulfill that function fully/anymore.

We are NOT women because our brains are female.

Yet again, you assumed you were being clever, and we silly women had made an error.

KatyaKabanova · 24/04/2025 06:28

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:19

I mean I dont feel that the erasure of the Trasgender victims of the Haulocaust is in fitting with decent soicety. These people lived as who they were and died for it and even if it makes your perspective more awkward I will continue to try to honour thier memory.

It does not make "my perspective" "more awkward".
I have no "perspective". I know about the Holocaust. I have read about it widely, researched it, and spoken to survivors. I am well aware of the entire process, so please do not patronise me about this topic.
If you want to inform yourself about Weimar and Nazi Germany I recommend that you read the works of Ian Kershaw, a reputable historian, as a starting point.

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:29

@FairAdvocate i made you sad? Oh nooooooo….. what will I do? How can I go on with my life knowing I have made someone sad and uncomfortable? I mean, males going into female spaces causes upset and discomfort to women, but this is soooooo much worse. How can I repent?

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:29

AmateurNoun · 24/04/2025 06:25

Here's a question OP.

If there were gender-neutral facilities everywhere in addition to single sex, would you be happy using that third space?

If not, why not? Why would you insist on using the women's space?

If yes, then why not fight for those additional spaces?

I think thats complicated right? I dont honestly know what I'd do.
It depends if I was getting weird male attention at the time maybe?

Early in my medical transition I did use third spaces as often as they were availible ( which isnt much) and I did so because I was concerned for my own wellbeing and health. I know that sounds self interested but im trying to be open and honest. Being trans and early on or being trans and obviously trans is scary and I dont think its quite appriciated just how bloody shit it is. Sometimes, when i think about that Ill never have my own bio children or carry my own child and get sad and cry it makes me realise that its not a choice and sometimes I hate that.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:30

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 06:29

@FairAdvocate i made you sad? Oh nooooooo….. what will I do? How can I go on with my life knowing I have made someone sad and uncomfortable? I mean, males going into female spaces causes upset and discomfort to women, but this is soooooo much worse. How can I repent?

This kind of conversation isnt one im looking to have. But thank you

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