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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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17
SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:11

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 11:10

It's called being a handmaiden 👋

Can you elaborate, because I have just said that I essentially can and do tell “those” kinds of men to fuck off myself.

Needspaceforlego · 26/04/2025 11:16

I see male and female as different to man and woman, one is sex based and the other is gendered identity. I don’t reject the idea of gender norms or the social constructs of gender. I don’t believe that VAWG is sex based, I believe it is linked to gender ‘norms,’ society and culture. I also don’t believe in blanket law/cultural changes based on what I see as gendered behaviours, as I see them as individuals and not representative of the whole gender class. Not all men, etc.

Sorry I'm confused, you understand Male and Female, but think Man and Woman is gender identity?
Do you also think Dogs and Bitches have a Gender Identity?
Or Cows and Bulls?

You don't believe in blanket law, well I'm sorry but law that's not blanket is open to abuse.

What is gendered behaviours?
Girls who play football are still Girls,
Men who knit are still men.
Clothing makes no difference to anyone.

HardyCrow · 26/04/2025 11:17

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:29

Okay.

Say for example my views are my own, and I didn’t ask a man for them, does it make me sexist to back my own corner? Since I am a legit certified adult human feeling.

I think that relies on the assumption that women who don’t agree are all under some sort of male spell. Which undermines their ability to make their own mind up.

Absolutely it does.

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:22

Needspaceforlego · 26/04/2025 11:16

I see male and female as different to man and woman, one is sex based and the other is gendered identity. I don’t reject the idea of gender norms or the social constructs of gender. I don’t believe that VAWG is sex based, I believe it is linked to gender ‘norms,’ society and culture. I also don’t believe in blanket law/cultural changes based on what I see as gendered behaviours, as I see them as individuals and not representative of the whole gender class. Not all men, etc.

Sorry I'm confused, you understand Male and Female, but think Man and Woman is gender identity?
Do you also think Dogs and Bitches have a Gender Identity?
Or Cows and Bulls?

You don't believe in blanket law, well I'm sorry but law that's not blanket is open to abuse.

What is gendered behaviours?
Girls who play football are still Girls,
Men who knit are still men.
Clothing makes no difference to anyone.

I don’t know how dogs or bitches categorise themselves, I don’t speak dog. I’ve had dogs, but never managed to ask them existential questions.

I don’t believe in changing laws (or anything) because some people can’t behave themselves, to put it mildly.

In much the same way I don’t deliver “group bollockings” at work for the actions of one/a small group of people. I deal with those people, and leave the innocent parties out of it.

commonsense61 · 26/04/2025 11:24

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 11:26

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:53

Oh, we’re on to immigrants. Cool. It’s like prejudice bingo this 😂

No.. they’re likely influenced by expectations in their community and culture that women are subservient to men.

That’s a convenient deflection.

Your proposed solution is very simple - are you honestly suggesting that is it adequate to not only sort male violence against women in this country but in the rest of the world (in order to allow those men into our country)?

You might have missed my question again - How do we mitigate the inevitable deaths in the meantime while your fiendish plan is taking effect?

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:28

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

A couple of reasons.

It’s likely that in some cases they have gendered violent behaviours because they’re already socialised as male. They have lived in the “male world” and haven’t shaken the impact that’s had on them.

Some of them are also just pretending to be trans women for their own benefit, whether that’s sexually or to gain access to women with the intention of harming them.

That doesn’t IMO equate to considering all trans women as either of the above, in the same way as I’m a not all men kinda woman, and still feeds into the unfairness of “consequences for all for the actions of some.”

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:32

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 11:26

That’s a convenient deflection.

Your proposed solution is very simple - are you honestly suggesting that is it adequate to not only sort male violence against women in this country but in the rest of the world (in order to allow those men into our country)?

You might have missed my question again - How do we mitigate the inevitable deaths in the meantime while your fiendish plan is taking effect?

You brought up immigrants.

Not sure how we’d educate an entire planet, no. But if the other solution is assuming that men from overseas are going to kill us and therefore only allowing female immigrants, not sure that’s a thing either.

How about - violent men, having committed violence, go to prison, and the rest of them live their lives.

If you think educating people not to kill each other is fiendish, I don’t really have an answer for you.

All I can tell you is I don’t mitigate my potential death by hiding. How you mitigate your own in none of my business.

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 11:34

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:28

A couple of reasons.

It’s likely that in some cases they have gendered violent behaviours because they’re already socialised as male. They have lived in the “male world” and haven’t shaken the impact that’s had on them.

Some of them are also just pretending to be trans women for their own benefit, whether that’s sexually or to gain access to women with the intention of harming them.

That doesn’t IMO equate to considering all trans women as either of the above, in the same way as I’m a not all men kinda woman, and still feeds into the unfairness of “consequences for all for the actions of some.”

Right so these men with male bodies from the "male world" show male behaviours having been socialised to be men and you want us to treat them like women?
🤣

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 26/04/2025 11:34

It’s likely that in some cases they have gendered violent behaviours because they’re already socialised as male

But they remain male, don't they.
Which makes them dangerous to women.

Needspaceforlego · 26/04/2025 11:36

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:22

I don’t know how dogs or bitches categorise themselves, I don’t speak dog. I’ve had dogs, but never managed to ask them existential questions.

I don’t believe in changing laws (or anything) because some people can’t behave themselves, to put it mildly.

In much the same way I don’t deliver “group bollockings” at work for the actions of one/a small group of people. I deal with those people, and leave the innocent parties out of it.

Well i think dogs and bitches are male and female exactly the same as most Men and Woman who don't have a Gender Identity.

Laws haven't changed they've just been clarified, Men shouldn't be in Female spaces or vice versa regardless of what people think they are.

Well it's simple stay out of woman/girls/female/ladies/lasses any other word you like spaces and you won't be subject to a bollocking.
Women deserve privacy and dignity.

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:37

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 11:34

Right so these men with male bodies from the "male world" show male behaviours having been socialised to be men and you want us to treat them like women?
🤣

Not particularly.

I think we, as in society and not just women, or just women who disagree with my views should treat:

Rapists like rapists
Murderers like murderers
Violent people like violent people

You can see a pattern.

I don’t believe we should treat all males like rapists, murderers or violent people. I don’t believe we should assume they all are, or could be. It’s a leap I’m not personally prepared to make.

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 11:38

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:28

A couple of reasons.

It’s likely that in some cases they have gendered violent behaviours because they’re already socialised as male. They have lived in the “male world” and haven’t shaken the impact that’s had on them.

Some of them are also just pretending to be trans women for their own benefit, whether that’s sexually or to gain access to women with the intention of harming them.

That doesn’t IMO equate to considering all trans women as either of the above, in the same way as I’m a not all men kinda woman, and still feeds into the unfairness of “consequences for all for the actions of some.”

So can you tell us what your magic formula is for spotting the men who will do you harm before it’s too late?

You must have a very reliable and ling range radar that works so much better than that of the rest of us?

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 26/04/2025 11:39

I don’t believe we should treat all males like rapists, murderers or violent people

Just that we should treat some men as if they've somehow become women?

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:40

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 11:38

So can you tell us what your magic formula is for spotting the men who will do you harm before it’s too late?

You must have a very reliable and ling range radar that works so much better than that of the rest of us?

I don’t have one, because I’m not a magician. I work on the basis that most people don’t want to murder me (because they don’t), and live my life on that basis.

I don’t walk down the street and look at every passing man and think “you might harm me!” I just walk to the shop, park, pub, wherever and just… go there.

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 11:41

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:37

Not particularly.

I think we, as in society and not just women, or just women who disagree with my views should treat:

Rapists like rapists
Murderers like murderers
Violent people like violent people

You can see a pattern.

I don’t believe we should treat all males like rapists, murderers or violent people. I don’t believe we should assume they all are, or could be. It’s a leap I’m not personally prepared to make.

But societies do treat men as a dangerous group. Why else do you think most western countries have gender segregated bathrooms, prisons and changing rooms, then? For a laugh?

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:43

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 26/04/2025 11:39

I don’t believe we should treat all males like rapists, murderers or violent people

Just that we should treat some men as if they've somehow become women?

Edited

I can save the repetition of this conversation, if you like.

I would use shared sex spaces, I’m not personally bothered about being segregated at all. You have a SSS, use it, not really sure whether I see a need for it even needs to come into it for you. You needed it, you have it. Surely that’s the end of that story.

I don’t treat males or females any differently because of what they were born as or claim to be now.

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:46

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 11:41

But societies do treat men as a dangerous group. Why else do you think most western countries have gender segregated bathrooms, prisons and changing rooms, then? For a laugh?

I’ve possibly missed your point.

I’m aware that society treats all men as if they’re dangerous, that’s the whole conversation we’re having.

I’m aware that’s because some women have an inherent suspicion of the whole male group. That’s also the conversation we’re having.

I don’t have to personally agree with those things.

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 11:46

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:32

You brought up immigrants.

Not sure how we’d educate an entire planet, no. But if the other solution is assuming that men from overseas are going to kill us and therefore only allowing female immigrants, not sure that’s a thing either.

How about - violent men, having committed violence, go to prison, and the rest of them live their lives.

If you think educating people not to kill each other is fiendish, I don’t really have an answer for you.

All I can tell you is I don’t mitigate my potential death by hiding. How you mitigate your own in none of my business.

Or how about we just carry on with reducing the exposure of women when vulnerable to men by having single sex spaces?

I know you can’t see the benefit of them but the drastic increase in sexual assaults in mixed sex changing rooms compared to single sex spaces is testament that physically removing men from a space helps reduce mvawg.

Arguably far more effective than the rather vague and hand wavey suggestion of ‘fixing’ male socialisation.

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:47

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 11:46

Or how about we just carry on with reducing the exposure of women when vulnerable to men by having single sex spaces?

I know you can’t see the benefit of them but the drastic increase in sexual assaults in mixed sex changing rooms compared to single sex spaces is testament that physically removing men from a space helps reduce mvawg.

Arguably far more effective than the rather vague and hand wavey suggestion of ‘fixing’ male socialisation.

You say that fixing it is vague, do you have any long term solution to fixing it that doesn’t involve women hiding for the rest of eternity?

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 11:48

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:43

I can save the repetition of this conversation, if you like.

I would use shared sex spaces, I’m not personally bothered about being segregated at all. You have a SSS, use it, not really sure whether I see a need for it even needs to come into it for you. You needed it, you have it. Surely that’s the end of that story.

I don’t treat males or females any differently because of what they were born as or claim to be now.

Interesting.

So you’re equally as comfortable standing next to a strange man late at night on a deserted train platform as you would be a woman?

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 11:49

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:47

You say that fixing it is vague, do you have any long term solution to fixing it that doesn’t involve women hiding for the rest of eternity?

Women having spaces where men aren’t allowed isn’t ‘hiding’. HTH.

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:51

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 11:48

Interesting.

So you’re equally as comfortable standing next to a strange man late at night on a deserted train platform as you would be a woman?

Yes.

Because that strange man is likely just waiting for a train.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/04/2025 11:51

Just to update any lurkers, the EHRC has now released new guidance following For Women Scotland’s successful Supreme Court challenge.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:52

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 11:49

Women having spaces where men aren’t allowed isn’t ‘hiding’. HTH.

Okay. It’s avoiding, if not hiding.

But as I asked, what’s your solution?

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