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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
EweSurname · 25/04/2025 17:07

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2025 14:11

Just for clarity there was a rather large dollop of sarcasm in my post saying I thought a trans woman would come on to apologise!

I'm just reading through the thread though and my goodness! He clearly only identifies as being conciliatory!

As much chance of that as of him being a woman or female.

Transconcilitary, perhaps

MathildaJane · 25/04/2025 17:09

KilkennyCats · 24/04/2025 21:53

It’s certainly where your understanding ends. Unfortunately.

I've explained female safeguarding and the preponderance of statical evidence upon which it's based. I told her we know as well as her that all men aren't predators but we have no way to tell which ones are and because we are the demographic they have historically preyed upon, the best solution was to prohibit all men from areas women might be vulnerable. She has never once acknowledged these points and keeps trying to distract with "I don't believe all men are dangerous/It's discriminatory against men to keep them out."

Her claims of a "female gender id" are laughable. You don't feel male? No sh__, Sherlock. You cannot ever feel like one unless you are one. If you ever did find yourself "feeling" like one, it is still based on your female perception of how a male feels. Guesswork at best.

I can "identify" as 89 and demand accommodation in elder care facilities. I can "identify" as a parachute and go around with a mini umbrella strapped to my head (iirc they were banned for constricting blood flow to the head) 🙄 Sorry to go all Scroogean but "Bah, humbug!"

The Japanese man who bought a realistic dog suit is as much a dog as a disguised man, a woman.

There's material reality that has an observable, inexorable impact on our lives and then there's faith, which might make it easier to bear with the harsh glare of that reality. While it can be a source of comfort, the latter does not in any way negate the bearing reality has on us as a collective.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 19:22

MathildaJane · 25/04/2025 17:09

I've explained female safeguarding and the preponderance of statical evidence upon which it's based. I told her we know as well as her that all men aren't predators but we have no way to tell which ones are and because we are the demographic they have historically preyed upon, the best solution was to prohibit all men from areas women might be vulnerable. She has never once acknowledged these points and keeps trying to distract with "I don't believe all men are dangerous/It's discriminatory against men to keep them out."

Her claims of a "female gender id" are laughable. You don't feel male? No sh__, Sherlock. You cannot ever feel like one unless you are one. If you ever did find yourself "feeling" like one, it is still based on your female perception of how a male feels. Guesswork at best.

I can "identify" as 89 and demand accommodation in elder care facilities. I can "identify" as a parachute and go around with a mini umbrella strapped to my head (iirc they were banned for constricting blood flow to the head) 🙄 Sorry to go all Scroogean but "Bah, humbug!"

The Japanese man who bought a realistic dog suit is as much a dog as a disguised man, a woman.

There's material reality that has an observable, inexorable impact on our lives and then there's faith, which might make it easier to bear with the harsh glare of that reality. While it can be a source of comfort, the latter does not in any way negate the bearing reality has on us as a collective.

Her here 😂👋🏻

I’m not sure what you wanted me to do. Congratulate you on your knowledge that some men can and do commit violence? Seems pointless, we all know that to be true.

Question whether that’s the case and profess their imaginary innocence? Again, seems futile.

You really, genuinely don’t need me to confirm that men have and do attack women. Or I thought you didn’t.

I am well aware that male violence exists, thank you, it still doesn’t shape my views on SSS and my own personal use of them. Which differs from yours, and that’s okay.

HardyCrow · 25/04/2025 19:25

Your comment about race being more complex than the diffferemce between men and women is so wrong that it’s offensive. Biologically and culturally women are very much not the same as men. Physiologically and and pycologically women have far more in common with other women (whatever their ethnic origins) than they do with men. I assume you were an adult when you transitioned but even if you were not the differences are too great to bridge.

SummerDaysOnTheWay · 25/04/2025 20:10

HardyCrow · 25/04/2025 19:25

Your comment about race being more complex than the diffferemce between men and women is so wrong that it’s offensive. Biologically and culturally women are very much not the same as men. Physiologically and and pycologically women have far more in common with other women (whatever their ethnic origins) than they do with men. I assume you were an adult when you transitioned but even if you were not the differences are too great to bridge.

Biologically Race doesn’t even exist.

Furtivenasturtium · 25/04/2025 20:15

SummerDaysOnTheWay · 25/04/2025 20:10

Biologically Race doesn’t even exist.

Just like gender.

SummerDaysOnTheWay · 25/04/2025 20:16

Why do you think we don’t have this issue with transmen wanting to be in men’s spaces?

SummerDaysOnTheWay · 25/04/2025 20:16

Furtivenasturtium · 25/04/2025 20:15

Just like gender.

Exactly.

Needspaceforlego · 25/04/2025 20:21

SummerDaysOnTheWay · 25/04/2025 20:16

Why do you think we don’t have this issue with transmen wanting to be in men’s spaces?

The chances of a transman sexually assaulting a man is highly remote.

However that's doesn't mean to say men and boys aren't entitled to their privacy and dignity too.

Everyone thinks about teen girls, but teen boys and also be body conscious. Older men might also feel intimidated.

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 26/04/2025 04:22

@SleeplessInWherever you’ve said “Gender doesn’t equal sex. I … am not GC in anyway shape or form.” but also say that male violence is gender based not sexed based violence.

I am confused why you’d not be critical of gender, if male violence is gender based. Can you expand?

edit - punctuation

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:00

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 26/04/2025 04:22

@SleeplessInWherever you’ve said “Gender doesn’t equal sex. I … am not GC in anyway shape or form.” but also say that male violence is gender based not sexed based violence.

I am confused why you’d not be critical of gender, if male violence is gender based. Can you expand?

edit - punctuation

Edited

Yeah.

Gender doesn’t equal sex, and I think you’d have to be incredibly misinformed to not recognise that there are biological differences between males and females.

I see male and female as different to man and woman, one is sex based and the other is gendered identity. I don’t reject the idea of gender norms or the social constructs of gender. I don’t believe that VAWG is sex based, I believe it is linked to gender ‘norms,’ society and culture. I also don’t believe in blanket law/cultural changes based on what I see as gendered behaviours, as I see them as individuals and not representative of the whole gender class. Not all men, etc.

But, I don’t feel oppressed by having or recognising gender as a construct that affects my life. You may not like this, but I don’t actually feel generally oppressed at all. Not by society, or by males as a whole group, or by virtue of being born female.

All of that aside, all most, as far as I see it GC feminism has links with radical/2nd wave feminism, and that’s not where I place myself or associate my beliefs to.

SquirrelSoShiny · 26/04/2025 10:23

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:06

mmm and do you not think this happens both ways?
Because I can assure you that it does.

This alone proves you are not posting in good faith. I'm so tired of this 'both sides' bullshit. The violence and hatred in your community flows out of utter entitlement and contempt for women. On this basis alone women are done with trying to appease you.

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 10:26

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:00

Yeah.

Gender doesn’t equal sex, and I think you’d have to be incredibly misinformed to not recognise that there are biological differences between males and females.

I see male and female as different to man and woman, one is sex based and the other is gendered identity. I don’t reject the idea of gender norms or the social constructs of gender. I don’t believe that VAWG is sex based, I believe it is linked to gender ‘norms,’ society and culture. I also don’t believe in blanket law/cultural changes based on what I see as gendered behaviours, as I see them as individuals and not representative of the whole gender class. Not all men, etc.

But, I don’t feel oppressed by having or recognising gender as a construct that affects my life. You may not like this, but I don’t actually feel generally oppressed at all. Not by society, or by males as a whole group, or by virtue of being born female.

All of that aside, all most, as far as I see it GC feminism has links with radical/2nd wave feminism, and that’s not where I place myself or associate my beliefs to.

You may not like this, but I don’t actually feel generally oppressed at all. Not by society, or by males as a whole group, or by virtue of being born female

You need to check your privilege. The reason you don't feel oppressed is because of a long line of women who did believe in blanket law and "yes, all men".

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 10:27

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:00

Yeah.

Gender doesn’t equal sex, and I think you’d have to be incredibly misinformed to not recognise that there are biological differences between males and females.

I see male and female as different to man and woman, one is sex based and the other is gendered identity. I don’t reject the idea of gender norms or the social constructs of gender. I don’t believe that VAWG is sex based, I believe it is linked to gender ‘norms,’ society and culture. I also don’t believe in blanket law/cultural changes based on what I see as gendered behaviours, as I see them as individuals and not representative of the whole gender class. Not all men, etc.

But, I don’t feel oppressed by having or recognising gender as a construct that affects my life. You may not like this, but I don’t actually feel generally oppressed at all. Not by society, or by males as a whole group, or by virtue of being born female.

All of that aside, all most, as far as I see it GC feminism has links with radical/2nd wave feminism, and that’s not where I place myself or associate my beliefs to.

How does the fact that men with a trans identity/ladybrain doesn’t reduce the likelihood of being a sex offender (in fact it increases it) fit into your theory?

From my previous question you might have missed, I’m also still interested in how you think we can reach this utopia of men being socialised to not be violent against women and how many casualties will there be in the interim - (? If indeed there is any substance to this and it actually works rather than just increasing women’s exposure to violent men?

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:31

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 10:26

You may not like this, but I don’t actually feel generally oppressed at all. Not by society, or by males as a whole group, or by virtue of being born female

You need to check your privilege. The reason you don't feel oppressed is because of a long line of women who did believe in blanket law and "yes, all men".

What privilege?

I don’t live in a world free of unsafe males.

The reason I don’t feel oppressed is because I don’t recognise the behaviours of some males as a symptom of all of them.

I absolutely recognise that there’s a long line of women who fought for me to be able to have my own money, for example, but that fight has happened. You can recognise that and still be grateful for it. I’m grateful for the vote, but we’ve stopped fighting for it because evidently it was won?

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:34

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 10:27

How does the fact that men with a trans identity/ladybrain doesn’t reduce the likelihood of being a sex offender (in fact it increases it) fit into your theory?

From my previous question you might have missed, I’m also still interested in how you think we can reach this utopia of men being socialised to not be violent against women and how many casualties will there be in the interim - (? If indeed there is any substance to this and it actually works rather than just increasing women’s exposure to violent men?

There needs to be a societal shift, largely from education and interventions. Andrew Tate for example, we need to be educating young boys that he’s an idiot.

There also needs to be focus on vulnerable groups that are more likely to behave in that way.

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 10:46

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:34

There needs to be a societal shift, largely from education and interventions. Andrew Tate for example, we need to be educating young boys that he’s an idiot.

There also needs to be focus on vulnerable groups that are more likely to behave in that way.

So do you think that will sort it then? What were the dv figures pre Andrew Tate? Was there a significant upturn that can’t also be attributed to the influx of men from countries that have extreme levels of violence against women for example? Are they also influenced by social media?

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:53

BundleBoogie · 26/04/2025 10:46

So do you think that will sort it then? What were the dv figures pre Andrew Tate? Was there a significant upturn that can’t also be attributed to the influx of men from countries that have extreme levels of violence against women for example? Are they also influenced by social media?

Oh, we’re on to immigrants. Cool. It’s like prejudice bingo this 😂

No.. they’re likely influenced by expectations in their community and culture that women are subservient to men.

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 10:56

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:34

There needs to be a societal shift, largely from education and interventions. Andrew Tate for example, we need to be educating young boys that he’s an idiot.

There also needs to be focus on vulnerable groups that are more likely to behave in that way.

Men need to be educating young boys.

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:58

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 10:56

Men need to be educating young boys.

So mothers shouldn’t teach their sons to respect women?

Female teachers - not up to them either? Female police officers?

Any woman in a position of authority?

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 11:02

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 10:58

So mothers shouldn’t teach their sons to respect women?

Female teachers - not up to them either? Female police officers?

Any woman in a position of authority?

Women have been doing that since forever. Apparently it's not working. It's time for men to step up way more than they have been and take social responsibility.

andtheworldrollson · 26/04/2025 11:07

Boys often find it easier to learn the right way to behave if they have good male role models - sex matters after all - particularly in a society that is telling them women don’t matter.

but women have a role also - too many women still say “boys will be boys”

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:08

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 11:02

Women have been doing that since forever. Apparently it's not working. It's time for men to step up way more than they have been and take social responsibility.

Anecdotally, the men in my life do.

But I also don’t particularly need the big strong men folk to back my corner and fight my battles - if I had any. Perfectly capable of doing it myself.

BabyOrca · 26/04/2025 11:10

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:08

Anecdotally, the men in my life do.

But I also don’t particularly need the big strong men folk to back my corner and fight my battles - if I had any. Perfectly capable of doing it myself.

It's called being a handmaiden 👋

SleeplessInWherever · 26/04/2025 11:10

andtheworldrollson · 26/04/2025 11:07

Boys often find it easier to learn the right way to behave if they have good male role models - sex matters after all - particularly in a society that is telling them women don’t matter.

but women have a role also - too many women still say “boys will be boys”

Agreed. “Boys are not boys”, and that’s not an excuse to behave in a certain way.

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