Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

Superfans, I'm not a Muslim, I'm a Christian. But I see truth in all religions, & I'm studying history & so interested in different cultures, esp feminist aspects. I've done more reading about rebellious women in Islamic countries than here. I'll look later. Quickly Goggling gives the Muslim Council of Britain's anti terrorism initiative.

I don’t know how anyone can look at Islamic countries, sharia principles or really talk about everyday family life to any British Muslim and think that there ISN’T a problem when it comes to female equality and rights.

I get that there is an element of respect and protection toward women, but it still comes from a place of paternalism and oppression. A lot of Islamic views on women clearly come from male, and misogynistic, misconceptions about the nature of women e.g. that innocent men get aroused because women ‘tempt’ them, or that women are naturally predisposed to domestic work and childcare, or that women should not get involved in politics or business etc…Don’t get me started on the idea of ‘modesty’ 🙄

I have met so many kind and lovely Muslim friends over the years, but ultimately let’s not pretend that Islam is force for good when it comes to women’s equality and empowerment.

The modesty idea is meant to apply to both men and women. But ofc men have turned it to just women..🙄

The love match between radical Islam and the radical left is truly strange but there you are.

Hmm, I'm not so sure it's that surprising that two groups of nutters share a few similarities. 😂

Super fans I couldn’t agree more re the love match between islamists and western lefties. I have always thought that it is because the western left is so terrified of being seen as racist that they turn a blind eye to the blatant institutional discrimination and abuse so many women suffer in Muslim countries. I also agree about the disappointing silence from most Muslims on the matter of terrorism, misogyny and the persecution of LGBT in Iran. Most of us probably know Muslims in our daily lives as colleagues and maybe neighbours and have no issues with them personally and we have no choice but to try and live peacefully. I draw the line at accepting the view of women that underpins the coran and the mental gymnastics required to see it as a progressive text for women.

Urgh this is so irrtating and frustrating, but I suppose their anti Christian and misogynistic tendencies match each other very well. I was listening to a lecture from.Humanists UK by a lovely guy who was talking about neo liberalism and authoritarian leaders like Putin, Trump and Modi. Not once did he mention the Islamist caliphates or Islamic countries suppression of women. Why are they so in thrall to the essentially far Right?

The problem is that in many of these countries, it is not the women who need to stand up and be counted. It's the men who need to say they want their daughters educated, and they are not happy for their wives to be fully shrouded and not speak in public. Instead, they seem to be happily going about their business without any restriction or fleeing to the West, leaving women and children in unbearable conditions. Women can't speak. Men can. Too many decide not to, and happily waved the Taliban in again.

I’m not sure if they are in thrall or if it’s that they don’t really care about women in these countries and just accept it as ‘part of their culture’, or if it is because they are afraid of being called Islamophobic.

is directly opposed to many values we in the West hold dear including freedom of women, freedom of speech and association, political process and democracy, protection of children from sexual exploitation, non-violent protest and freedom for people to love and marry who they wish (provided both parties are adults).

Would now be a bad time to point out that the Roman Catholic Church, and a number of other Christian denominations, are directly opposed to many of those as well?

A number of Christian sects are against freedom of women to use contraception or obtain abortions. Or to play senior roles in the church, or regard themselves as equal to men in relationships. A fair number are vocally against women doing pretty much anything other than being housewives and churning out child after child to ensure their "quivers are full".

Quite a few pay lip service to the protection of children from sexual exploitation but then go to great lengths to hide child abuse amongst their congregations and clergy.

Most are against freedom for people to love and marry who they wish. Even the CofE campaigned hard against the legalisation of gay marriage and refuses to allow gay people to be married in church.

There are a number of prominent Christian voices who are calling for what amounts to a Christian theocracy in the US.

But, sure, only Islam is the problem religion.

Where would you prefer to live? UK, or Europe maybe or an Islamic country?

Putin and Trump are much greater risks to the West than the caliphates.

Yes you did, here you are, you said:

To suggest a nation that has slaughtered 40,000 people is quiet and peaceful, cannot be serious

I did not check if you said the thing about Judaism killing millions, but didn't feel I needed to being as you were started all this by countering me when I was responding to whoever did say Judaism is killing millions.

@HowardTJMoon

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/a-threat-to-all-of-europe-iran-is-supplying-russia-with-ballistic-missiles-says-us-secretary-of-state-13212343

Iran sends ballistic missiles to Russia

If you look at a muslim couple, both dressed in modest clothing as prescribed for men and women by Islam, on a hot day, you can really easily spot who is cool in their clothes that day and who is really, really uncomfortably hot.

There are modestly requirements for men and women, but the men get to wear loose knee length shorts and a loose short sleeved shirt. The women are wearing clothes and then a complete garment on top covering them from head to foot.

Women's modesty clothing is much more restrictive and covering than men's are.

Quite. I am starting to wonder whether we shouldn't limit asylum to just women and children. I find it very depressing to see hordes of young males moving here when we know what's happening to the women they've left behind. I would make exceptions for men who have stood up to oppressive regimes and been forced to flee.

Any group that uses religious beliefs to oppress others is a problem.

@DuskyBlueDepartingLight

That's Putin's Russia, right? If those missiles were fired at western Europe it would be done at Putin's command, right?

I stand by what I said.

@HowardTJMoon despite your posts I'm assuming if it came down to it you would not choose to live in an Islamic country?

Is that correct

What do you mean by "despite my posts"? I don't believe I've said anything that is in favour of Islamic fundamentalism. If I have please point it out so I can correct my mistake.

But, to answer your "gotcha!", no I wouldn't want to live in a strongly Islamic country. Nor would I want to live in a strongly any-religion country. I wouldn't want to live in Putin's Russia, either. Or China.

Now we've got all that out of the way, what has that got to do with my opinion that Putin and his lapdog Trump represent a bigger and more immediate threat to the west than Islam and/or the caliphates do?

I suggest you look up the definition of race under the Equality Act in the UK and you will then see that I do understand what racism is, under our law ( it includes nationality).

If you think saying ' Israel is a nation' is any sort of response or defence, then you clearly are unable to understand the argument I have made. Which I thought was quite clear. Accusing a nation of people of something, as you have done = racist. Accusing of government of doing something = not racist.

I have explained my position quite clearly on the statement, 'Judaism kills millions' in previous posts. I was countering a racist statement, you joined in to argue against me when I did.

Look, I have explained my position quite clearly with clear arguments based on things you have said on this thread. You have not responded with any argument to any of these points but instead have just thrown around insults like ' childish' and ' toddler' (showing a remarkable lack of self- awareness).

I get you think you are one of the good guys and its extremely discomforting for you have someone point out how the way you are thinking about Israel is racist, after all you think you are justified in thinking like this because you believe they are bad, but the way you are thinking, as revealed by what you have written here, is racist.

Your posts defend the religion

I'm glad I was correct though. I'm yet to see anyone who posts in the same way say they would prefer to live in an Islamic country.

I am fine with criticising the religion, although I am aware it's an easy deleted topic. and that is consistent with knowing there's no way I would choose it for me or my dd. Or other dc

This discussion centres around Islam’s impact on the rights of women. Discussing Putin and Trump’s impact on The West is out of the scope of the discussion but I’m not the thread police and of course people can discuss what they like in a free country.