Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

@Ozanj The Latin Vulgate is a direct translation of the Greek Septugent was for Centuries the Catholic Bible and still is, and we have only had in translated into multiple languages in recent times. Where in the Greek Septugent, which is a direct translation of the Hebrew books of the Bible, are there any verses that condone or encourage child marriage? Where in the Gospels and New Testament books in Hebrew does Christ or any of the Apostles condone or encourage child marriage?
Please provide concrete, verifiable evidence if you're going to make damning accusations of a faith that a few of us still believe in.

This feminist Muslim website is a great, probing resource. https://orbala.wordpress.com/

Did Jesus venture that far? Of course not.

The founder of Islam was a belligerent warlord, extremely powerful, ambitious and tactically intelligent. The Arab conquests, which he led, resulted in a huge empire.

Jesus was a revolutionary in some ways, but he didn’t wield any physical weapons.

I don't like saying 'our values' as if the values of any Muslim culture are autimatically opposed. I've been reading 'Midnight in Cairo' which deals w 1950s Egyptian feminism for instance. There are women in the public eye like obvs Malala Yousafzai or Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, who calls out Wanhabism. I've been also researching medieval Arab courts, (I'm a history student) & many women there wrote respected poetry, sometimes even quite suggestive, so the draconian modesty female rules haven't been universal to all Islamic cultures. Islam isn't a monolith, no religion is. I'm a Christian & as different from a Bible Belter, say, as it's possible to be. The issue is that in Islam the Bible Belt equivalents have power in many countries, but many Muslims aren't like that at all. Nuance us key. Misogyny anywhere should be challenged, but it should be recognised that many women within Islam are as opposed to it as we ate. The Wanhabi way isn't the only way to be Muslim.

On specific issues, I'd recommend this blog post, which convincingly suggests Aisha being 9 at the consummation is a later lie: https://orbala.wordpress.com/2023/03/04/script-summary-of-ch-8-of-sexual-ethics-the-prophet-muhammad-his-beloved-aisha-and-modern-muslim-sensibilities/

The Fatal Feminist is another good blog.
I'd recommend these posts as well, they address many of the qureries here : orbala.wordpress.com/2024/04/07/patriarchal-religious-modesty-standards-benefit-men-and-inconvenience-women-and-theyre-not-from-god/

https://orbala.wordpress.com/2021/06/20/video-script-summary-of-kecia-alis-sexual-ethics-islam-chs-2-3-divorce-and-slavery-in-islam-what-the-patriarchy/

https://orbala.wordpress.com/2020/08/02/a-discussion-of-fatima-mernissis-the-veil-and-the-male-elite-a-feminist-interpretation-of-womens-rights-in-islam/

Well there is Surah 4:34:” Men are caretakers of women, since Allah has made some of them excel the others, and because of the wealth they have spent. So, the righteous women are obedient, (and) guard (the property and honor of their husbands) in (their) absence with the protection given by Allah. As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them. Then, if they obey you, do not seek a way against them. Surely, Allah is the Highest, the Greatest”
Frankly it sounds like something out of the Andrew Tate playbook.
The Bible also has misogynistic passages but the difference is it generally isn’t seen as a users’ manual to life by Christians ie you do not have to follow all the rules. The Coran is interpreted literally in the more conservative Muslim countries, Afghanistan being th e ultimate example. So yes I think Islam has a big problem with women.

Bc we're in Britain the focus is on British misdeeds, slavery etc..They shouldn't be brushed under the carpet. This doesn't mean we should say our culture is bad, or that we shouldn't challenge injustice abroad.

Likewise, Turkey should face up to the Ottiman slave trade and the pist WW1 genocide of Armenians. Standards should be raised, not lowered.

I obviously haven't read it all but just had a quick look and it looks very interesting!

I think religious ideology, like gender ideology, can be highly male centred. Islam included, and other religions to various degrees.

As a woman with a dd I prefer atheism and rationality.

The problem the world over, whatever their race or religion, is always men.

Because she was quoting me and calling me a racist whilst making claims of things I didn't say. I didn't say any of those things as you can see from my posts.

So I don’t know if the central tenets of Islam are at the core warlike and misogynistic, (although I have heard some put forward a powerful case for this) but it is clear that how radical Islam is practiced in many countries (including the UK in places) is directly opposed to many values we in the West hold dear including freedom of women, freedom of speech and association, political process and democracy, protection of children from sexual exploitation, non-violent protest and freedom for people to love and marry who they wish (provided both parties are adults).

This does not hold true for many moderate Muslims in the west who are able to integrate their faith with the values of western society but there are clearly some who are far more radical, hence the calls for jihad on the streets of London and multiple attacks in the name of Allah.

There are legitimate questions to be asked about whether US and UK warmongering in the Middle East was the correct course of action (I believe absolutely not) however these should be dealt with through political means not through murdering UK civilians indiscriminately as we have seen on numerous occasions in the last 10 years.

It is true that many religions have a bloody past including Christianity however it should be remembered the most murderous idealogies of the twentieth century have not been religious exactly in nature but defined as political - communism and nazism. What distinguished these was the shutting down of dissent and the absolute fanaticism of their adherents.

We in the west are unable to criticise radical Islam or recognise the danger. Even when fanatics commit murder on our streets we cannot name the threat or take steps to tackle it. The Manchester bomber was noted to be behaving oddly by several people but not challenged probably because of the fear the challenger would be deemed racist.

Will it take like what happened in Israel before we recognise a problem. Hamas is an Islamic death cult they murdered innocent people in cold blood and are now sacrificing their own population for propaganda purposes while their leaders are rich and safe in the Arab Emirates.

I believe Muslims are our brothers and sisters in God like all humanity and have the right to worship and find their God how they see fit. But when a dangerous murderous ideology takes hold it must be recognised for what it is before more people die.

The love match between radical Islam and the radical left is truly strange but there you are.

The love match between radical Islam and the radical left is truly strange but there you are.

What do you mean?

Tell me @username101010

What happened on October 7th?

I'll give you a clue, involved a proscribed terrorist group / misogynistic death cult invading, raping, torturing, murdering innocent civilians & taking hostages including infants.

A sovereign nation has a right to defend it's people from such inhumane acts.

The antisemitism on this thread is vile.

Bring them home now! Release the hostages!

Hamas could have released the hostages but chose instead to maximise the deaths of people in Gaza & only last week executed hostages at point blank range just before a potential rescue.

The people of Israel live - despite their neighbours constantly trying to eradicate them.

I simply asked you what you meant about the 'radical left' and 'radical Islam. You seem to be suggesting that the left are supporting Hamas and fundamentalist Islam. Do you have any examples of this?

Please report any antisemitic posts.

On the awful Surah where Muhammad says a wife can be hit as a last resort, there is a persuasive interpretation that the word should actually be interpreted as 'turn away from'. This fits w the evidence that Muhammad never beat his wives & criticised men who did. For more, see Fatima Mernissi's The Veil and the Male Elite. I'd also recommend the anthology We Wrote in Symbols. It'd primarily literary writing by Muslim women from a variety of countries about love & sexuality, but more widely it gives a view of the variety of liberal attitudes present in different Muslim communities.

Just read the guardian. Broadly my observation the left tend to be the ones who brand any concern/criticism of radical Islam Islamophobia and its the Labour Party who are introducing Islamophobia law which has the dangerous effect of making an ideology unable to be questioned. (I fully believe people who practice Islam should enjoy full protection from discrimination and prejudicial treatment. However criticism of any ideology of religion must remain legitimate in a free society as long as there is no call for violence against those who practice it)
However I accept I may be wrong on this one re the left being less aware of dangers/human rights abuses. I’m not wrong that radical Islam is dangerous and we need to understand that clearly.

@username101010

You have deliberately confused me with @Superfans

My message was with regards to your earlier contributions, as you well know.

I'd imagine many of the deletions on this thread have indeed been for antisemitism & other hate speech.

I completely agree with you that we shouldn't have a law against Islamaphobia but I don't believe the Labour party are introducing it. I've also heard the rumours and find it unlikely. Unlike Judaism, Islam is not an ethnicity, it's a religion which is already protected under the law.

I read the Guardian amongst other papers, and haven't read anything to suggest that they support terrorism or radical Islam. I would make a complaint if I saw something like that as it's completely unacceptable.

I agree that extremism is dangerous.

This is great but it is there a strong Islamic voice from the diaspora in the west speaking out against the stoning of women in Iran? Or the Taliban imprisoning women? Or the death penalty for gay people in Iran. I’ve heard individual brave Muslims criticise these things but no united opposition, no not in our name. If you truly believe your scripture doesn’t justify these atrocities why don’t you shout it to the rooftops?

Maybe there is more opposition and I’m not aware of it. Shouldn’t moderate Muslims condemn the calls for sharia law and jihad in the UK?

More recommendations : books by Manal al-Sharif, Nimco Ali, Nawal El Sadaawi, Laila Abou Saif, Halide Edip, Leila Slimani, Wajeha al- Huwaider. & the essay collection It's Not About The Burqa is v good.
There's a huge feminist movement in Iran despite the awful repressive government- the protests recently are the latest in a long line. If you read Persrpolis, Marjane Satrapi's parents had no issue w her getting a divorce, & supported her right to education.
This is a bit of jumble, but it gives a variety of viewpoints. Another thing I'd say is that in the medieval Arab world, the attitudes to homosexuality were fairly tolerant often. This changed w the rise of Wanhabism, which dominated Saudi Arabia until v recently.