Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

That's the issue w the modest clothing : the Quran's language never says it should be applied differently like that- but that's how men have interpreted . Hijab, niqab & burqa being only for women is something that isn't stated at all, nobody is told to wear them. It's entirely cultural.
Obvs the covering is not the only issue,& not the most important by a long way, but it should be noted that smaller groups of super Conservative Christians & Ultra Orthodox Jews also are stern about women being modest.

I believe the Qur'an has a lot to say on modesty and women's clothing. How it's interpreted is cultural:
https://submission.org/Dress_Code_1.html#:~:text=%5BQuran%2033%3A59%5D%20O,they%20shall%20LENGTHEN%20their%20garments.

when people post links like that above it does just underline the absurdity of it all. “At the end of the verse, God told the women not to strike with their feet to show their "zeenatahunna." Striking the feet while walking can emphasize , exaggerate or shake certain parts of the body that do not need to be emphasized”. …..case in point, so as a woman I can’t do any activity that cause certain parts of my body to jiggle?? Who am I offending by my jiggling ,why is it the continual focus on women’s “ beauty” and physical aspects rather than what good they do in the world or what is within their hearts?

Women are inherently considered to be creatures of vice and sinfulness because males can’t possibly take responsibility for their own sexual appetites and transgressions. It all has to be attributed to the fault of women, hence why women are commanded to be modest and pious.

1st Rule of Misogyny - women are responsible for what men do.

Women are inherently considered to be creatures of vice and sinfulness because males can’t possibly take responsibility for their own sexual appetites and transgressions.

That applies across the board, unfortunately.

It might apply across the board but the problem with setting religious “standards” even if it’s emphasised that those choices around clothing etc are meant to be personal and individual, is that there is a problem that some men then presume that women who don’t do x,y,z are therefore immodest,etc etc.So for every hijab-wearing woman who justifies it on the basis of her personal choice, she is still conveying a message that women who don’t do that are somewhat lesser.

Really? I don't see Trump or even Putin funding terrorists to blow up children in Manchester.

I meant that:

Women are inherently considered to be creatures of vice and sinfulness

Applies to every religion (apart from Wicca).

I completely agree that so called modest dress and attributes do create a standard whereby women who don't conform are seen as fair game.

However, that doesn't just apply to Islam. Have you never heard of slut shaming or victim blaming where a victim of assault or abuse is blamed because of their behaviour or clothes?

No it doesn’t just apply to aIslam but when people are slut shaming they are generally not having their religious leaders quoting texts to justify that action. Slut shaming is part of morality which is again as old as time when it comes to women’s actions.

I would put the judgement and blame of women for the behaviour of men, at the door of religion including Christianity which influenced society for thousands of years. I'm sure it was done before that, but religion has been used as a stick to beat women with for centuries.

But generally in the uk (at least !) Christianity is no longer being that stick to beat people with. I think we have learnt lessons from our own history of religious oppression hence why it sticks in the craw so much to see other women still being subjected to it and for it to be unchallenged . My kids go to a (state ) girls school ,highly diverse which is in every other way great but when they celebrate world hijab day every year I have a very visceral response.

That's correct, in the UK, unless you're part of a religious organisation, Christianity is not overtly used against you.

However our laws, philosophy, literature and culture has been heavily influenced by Christianity and its mores. We have the virgin/whore dichotomy or Eve/Mary dichotomy due to Christianity for example.

My posts did no such thing. Please don't lie about what I wrote.

I don't see ISIS pointing hundreds of nuclear weapons at the West.

Terrorism like that is absolutely appalling. But it doesn't fundamentally change a country's economy or its status on the world stage.

Covert propaganda and money from Russia played a big part in Brexit and the rise of Trump. It's played a significant role in the rise of far-right extremism across the West as a whole. Russia has turned conspiracy theories, memes and shitposting into a political weapon the like of which we've never seen. It's been terrifyingly effective.

And they're still doing it: just this week it was uncovered that a Russian "news" network has been paying huge amounts of money to right-wing podcasters etc to push pro-Russian talking points.

Not even in ISIS's wettest dreams could it hope to destabilise the West the way that Putin has achieved over the last decade.

Could you link to those statements please as I haven't been able to find anything. I'd be very interested to see what they say. Thanks

It is very much in the religion. Go back and read Surah 4:34. it’s all about how women must be managed by men not the other way round . Their bodies must be modestly covered so as not to arouse men, not the other way round. Do the mullah worry that the menfolk are going to arouse women and so order them to cover their hair or even their entire frame? Is it legal in most Muslim countries for women to have more than 1 husband? The answer is no.

Another thought on the bromance between islamists and certain western left wingers. I believe that after the fall of soviet communism a lot of lefties felt homeless and started to see Islam as a real answer to western capitalism.

And the bromance between the right and the Taliban. The Jan 6 insurrectionists photoshopped pictures of themselves alongside Taliban fighters.

Yes, that happened too. Didn’t end well is the least one can say about that.

Bith are far Right and have the same views regarding women and people of other races/ religions. At least they are consistent. The Left, call themselves ' progressive' when it suits them yet decide to champion these hardline religious fundamentalists.

The Left, call themselves ' progressive' when it suits them yet decide to champion these hardline religious fundamentalists.

People can call themselves what they want, but championing hard-line religious fundamentalists, tends to be something associated with the right.

You don't get many fundamentalists who believe in women's rights, abortions or gay rights for example.

Choose?

Even if the answer would be similar for a Christians or Jews, so what? Other people being homophobic doesn't excuse homophobia.

Some Christian sects do have fairly reactionary typical right wing traditional views of gender roles and sexuality. They have freedom to express them. I don’t see people knifing others on the streets of London to promote them. Or murdering children for listening to music.

The Catholic Church regards homosexuality as wrong but no Catholic country is putting homosexuals to death and no priests are calling for violence from the pulpit. In fact we are far less tolerant of Christian’s expressing their views than any other denomination. The western values I listed before are somewhat at odds with the conservative interpretation of many religions (although also informed by Christian teaching to some degree as well as enlightenment values) and that is not a problem as long as those views are not forced on others by violence. If Islamic preachers want to tell their followers women should dress modestly and homosexual relationships are wrong I don’t have an issue with that. But we should condemn the violent enforcement with cruel and unusual punishment (public stoning) of these values in Islamic countries we should be absolutely crystal clear that such horrors will never happen here. You might say they won’t but we’ve already had honour killings in the UK, grooming gangs and of course the attempt to undermine the western way of life through multiple violent terrorist attacks.