Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

Exactly.
In the Sky interview, when asked which immigrants she was referring to, Kemi Badenoch replied:

“People who come from countries where Israel is seen as an enemy.
I remember growing up in Nigeria as a young child, that people talked about Israel with a lot of positivity.
What I didn’t know is that in the northern part of the country, which was heavily Muslim, people spoke in a completely different way.
I also remember when 10 years ago 300 girls were stolen from school and taken away by Islamist terrorists.
It resonates with what happened on October 7th, so I‘m always shocked by the number of people who are unable to sympathise with those victims. People who are ripping down posters. I think that’s extraordinary, missing children’s posters being ripped down because people hate the country.
I don’t think that has any place here.”

I don’t disagree with her here. I mean, what point is being made by ripping down those posters?

We must recognise that the world has changed...But there are some, those who buy into Islamist ideology, political Islam, they do not like Israel and we need to be able to distinguish between the two."

You’ve left out an important bit here. She said: “It’s not all Muslims, but there are some, those who buy into Islamist ideology, political Islam, they do not like Israel and we need to be able to distinguish between the two."

Before that, she was asked: “You evidently mean Muslim immigrants, why didn’t you say that?”, and she replied: “Because it’s not all Muslim immigrants.”

As far as I'm concerned the minutiae doesn't matter. I don't see any point to her article or interview apart from stoking cultural division.

She is perfectly aware that we've just had riots where people were trying to burn asylum seekers alive and she's aware that the Tories are leaking voters and members to Reform.

She made a point about vetting immigrants to make sure they have Western values and about integration yet offered no solution to those issues. Secondly, she gave an example of Muslims as the culture she was talking about.

My point is, we let in hundreds of thousands of immigrants a year and many are from non Western countries that don't share our values. Yet she singled out Islam as having a culture not of equal value.

In my opinion, this is dog whistle politics. She knows exactly the type of voter she's trying to entice back to the Tories and the members she wants to vote for her in the leadership contest.

There's no substance to what she's saying. How does she propose to lower immigration? How does she propose to vet immigrants for their values? How does she propose to encourage integration? It comes across to me that she's saying key words certain people want to hear to garner votes.

So because we’ve just had riots, issues with certain groups from Muslim majority countries shouldn’t be discussed?
The German politician I mentioned earlier was specifically talking about young men from these countries. There are plenty of other immigrants in Germany, but according to him it wasn’t them his daughter was having issues with.
Of course there are also immigrants from other backgrounds who might not share British/ Western values or refuse to integrate.
If that creates problems in their host societies, it should also be addressed.
I just don’t agree with the shutting down of debate.
If an issue exists, it should be addressed.
I’d also be interested to hear what kind of solutions Kemi Badenoch has in mind. The Sky interview was quite short though, not much time to unpick complex issues.

I'm not going to continue this as it's derailing the thread.

I clearly explained my position after saying that I'm a strong proponent of free speech. I don't believe in shutting down a discussion and at the risk of repeating myself, I don't trust her motives.

She doesn't give any solutions as I explained and she gave the interview on the back of an article she wrote on immigration.

Yes I'm a huge fan of freedom of speech.

This means I'm allowed to say things like, 'I think it is disgusting that Muslims worldwide have not risen and united against the Taliban in defence of the women of Afghanistan.' I'm also allowed to simultaneously say things like 'I hate what is happening to the people of Gaza' and 'I completely understand why Israel invaded Gaza in response to October 7th.' I can draw a cartoon of Allah or Buddha or Jedi knights if I want they're not my 'gods' why would I not do it if I felt like it?

And guess what? Anyone who wants to do me harm for any of those things should not only take a long fucking look in the mirror, they should not be living in a Western democratic country. Let them go live in a medieval society where people can be hanged for 'blasphemy' if they wish. You don't get to live here enjoying the freedoms from harm that a liberal society offers, only to use that freedom to turn Britain into the same kind of horrifying backwater asylum seekers fled from. All those poor Muslim men running for their lives leaving their mothers and sisters behind, then trying to turn our home into the very monstrosity they fled from.

This doesn't mean I 'hate' Islam or that I'm 'anti- Muslim' or 'Islamaphobic', it just means Islam is not magically above reproach or open discussion. I'm allowed to say the things I dislike about it in exactly the same way I can talk about what I dislike about MAGA or gender woo or far right politics or carnivore diets. It has to be discussed more openly, especially by the vast majority of Muslims who are decent human beings who don't recognise the jihadists as representing Islam.

It is time that Britain learned from the lunatic fringe and got more radical - on preserving our freedom to speak truthfully, without 'fear' of offending, and to tell those who disagree that they have no place here, they can go and live elsewhere. They have about 190 countries to choose from.

PS: if it's any consolation she's frantically distancing herself from something on maternity pay and being accused of 'dog whistle politics' there too! I'm sure they'll all stack up pretty swiftly to eliminate her from the Tory race so you can sleep easy tonight!

I'm watching it all, don't worry.

I agree that we should discuss anything and criticise anything and am proud to live in a country where I can.

I'm also weary of people trying to shut down legitimate views and share your enthusiasm for robust discussion.

I'm glad you said this, because I was going to say she's clearly not talking about all Muslims if she's specifying "Islamist ideology, political Islam" but rather only those who are Islamist extremists and want to introduce Sharia law. That was my interpretation anyway. And I don't even like Badenoch but still didn't think that particular quote was wrong.

I think maybe there needs to be a better word for them than Islamists though, as clearly that word means different things to different people if some Muslims who aren't extremist still feel like they're being referred to. And I get it - as a Zionist who fucking hate that people have misappropriated the word, I feel sympathy for anyone who might feel similar about the word Islamist.

What would the Muslim do without all the western feminists coming to their rescue starting with the denigration of their religion.

Haven't MI5 stated that radical Islamic terrorism is the biggest terrorist threat to national security?

this post would not be still standing if it was discussing judaism. So many posters should be disgusted with their islamophobia disguised as faux concern.

If they haven't they should have.

Islam and radical jihadist Islam are not the same thing in practice but until all Muslims understand that Islam is open to criticism just like any other faith, there will continue to be accusations of 'Islamaphobia'. A meaningless word frankly.

Is there any particular reason you’ve picked judaism?

I agree, and if I remember correctly all of this has been discussed on this thread weeks ago.
There is no reason any religion or ideology should be above criticism.

yes

Okay then, I wonder what that reason might be.
You’ve made a very similar claim on this very same thread couple of weeks ago and several people responded.
Instead of addressing any of the replies you just say the same thing again. Not sure you’re actually interested in a debate.

Which is?

I think it's pretty obvious

It's not, that's why people are asking.

No, it is. People asking are being goady.

I'm not, can't speak for anyone else.

I haven't a clue either.

Sure, I'll assume youre being genuine.

As a muslim women, I was born into a religion which leaving is considered a mortal sin. This religion also is used to suppress women across the world. Societies are built around the nice parts of islam- taking care of your family, your responsibility to your neighbors, to random guest. This has, for many years, developed a wholesome culture of caring and love that people outside of islam dont see nor regosinize because they are distracted by the hate.

What is happening in Afghanistan and Iran for example is a direct result of western interference in the region. Sadly, Islam is used as a tool to control and put fear into the masses. This is done by corrupt authoritarian regimes that are trying to maintain control post colonialism. No part of me agrees with this, but it's not the fault of islam. It is the fault of what western countries have done to the region after centuries of interference. Most of the Arab world is moderate. People are free to drink if they choose, wear a bikini on the beach. People are also free to wear a burka and put their children in segregated schools. This post, and much of the discussion around islam is based on the fear of the extremism. Which in all honesty doest represent islam at all. But it becomes an echo chamber of what if the Jihadist come to out shores??? What if my daughter is forced to wear a burka?????

This dialogue does nothing to help people trapped and trying to navigate a religion they dont hate, but a religion that is used as a tool to control and suppress them. It also does nothing beyond spread and normalise islamophophia. when I read posts like this, it gives me anxiety because I am very aware of the rise of islamophipia. I feel like I should be apologetic, and minimize myself. That somehow the presence of Jihadists is my fault. No one gleefully posting their hate here considers this. In contrast, the second you mention that Israel is killing a bunch of muslims it becomes about anti-semetisim. Islam is fair game on mumsnet and in the UK.

Well that's one view.
Another is... before the 'west' gained any momentum, monotheistic abrahamic faiths pushed westwards and created competing power structures to suppress existing pantheistic faiths. Abraham must have been an interesting man. The Roman Catholic church gained dominance at one point, the limit of their influence flexed through the ages against islam. Judaism and it's followers were targeted by both in many countries. In the UK & western Europe there was a schism between christian authorities, (Rome Vs not Rome ) and lots of bloodshed, we are largely past that but see similar issues in islam today.

Your description of the positive side of faith, (support for family & community), holds for all of them.

You still haven't answered the question about why we can't critique Judaism.