Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

Thanks for your reply @kassieknows

When you talk about the culture of caring within Islam, I absolutely recognise that from Muslims I've known over the years and I think you're right that it's a real shame the narrative has become so dominated by all the fears and discussion over extremism, Jihad, etc. I believe Muslims as a whole are one of the most charitable groups as there's such a strong emphasis on giving, and I also really love family-centric ethos that exists.

As you point out, there are elements of the religion that are more problematic, such as the lack of freedom to leave, the treatment of women (some of which may be more based in culture than religious teaching, although in practice it makes no difference). As this is the feminism board, obviously treatment of women is going to be discussed fairly robustly and I think that's right. Do these things represent Islam? Yes and no, obviously in practical terms we can only observe and comment on the way things play out in the real world. And there is a genuine threat from Islamic extremism too; I don't believe that's an Islamophobic statement, it's simply a reality that we have to deal with. It's not the only form of extremism (see the rise of the Far Right) but it's certainly very much on the radar of our security services. Absolutely this is not the fault of moderate Muslims, who are the majority.

I see you talk about the legacy of colonialism and Western interference, which is entirely fair enough, but it would be nice if you could acknowledge that Islam has its own history in this regard.

As for the discussion about Israel, well that certainly seems like fair game if the hundreds of threads on MN are anything to go by. I've seen a lot of posts that are antisemitic, the most blatant do get deleted but it's not remotely accurate to say that the discussion as a whole is shut down. It doesn't tend to focus on Judaism as a religious ideology per se, because that's not really the centre of the conflict, which is essentially about land.

What I don't understand is why so many of the woke type of posters that believe all men (even innocent ones) need to stand up against male violence get offended at the suggestion that all Muslims should stand up/speak out against Islamic violence.

Exactly. Their arguments look ridiculous, and EXACTLY the same as "not all men".

If the supposed moderate majority of a supposed peaceful religion get all offended and upset if the actions of some within their religion are criticised, and they react defensively, then that's what they look like. The Not All Men guys.

If they can't acknowledge the problem, then they're not going to be doing anything to resolve it.

Now, if I were to point out that most identified terrorist groups in the world are Islamic, some on this chat would be deeply offended. So I won't list them, but a quick Google will show what I mean. IMO this is a basic fact, hard to deny

It's EXACTLY the same response as women pointing out to men that the majority of violence, and especially sexual violence, is male, and many men responding defensively and "Not All Men".

Blaming it all on white people / British / French / colonialism is ridiculous, and looks the same to me as men blaming their behaviour on Feminazis.

"What is happening in Afghanistan and Iran for example is a direct result of western interference in the region."

Afghanistan originally conquered by Alexander the Great 3rd - 4th C BCE, then the Arab invasion 7th - 8th century, then Mongol invasion 13th century, Tamerlane invaded 1370, Safavids and Hotak Dynasty 13th - 14th centuries, British invasions 19th century, Soviet invasion 1970 - 1989 then US invasion 2001 - 2021.

But you want to focus only on the most recent British and US. Ignoring all else.

I do not see that is intellectually honest. Nor do I see your "not all Islam" arguments as honest. If you cannot acknowledge the problem Islam as it is practiced today in a very large number of countries has with women, then you will never be part of any solution.

Finally, one of the worst Islamic countries in regards to how it treats women IMO would be Saudi Arabia. Which has never been colonised.

From what I have read, the animosity and rivalry between two Islamic sects are a major cause of tensions between, for example Saudi Arabia and Iran (and their proxies throughout the Middle East). The Sunni majority and the more hardline Shia minority. That rivalry started more or less at the birth of Islam, not as a result of Western interference. Although I do agree that the West should not have interfered in the Middle East, the result of their non interference would have been to let these countries be, controlled by brutal dictators while trying to kill each other and invading territory regularly. I doubt they would all have lived happily together in peace and harmony if it wasn't for those pesky Americans.

Sidhu, My personal view is that Muslims should protest the actions of UK based extremists who follow terrorist ideologies. They should definitely challenge it in private. Not everyone can be out protesting on the streets, what happens in homes, mosques etc is more important. Similarly, I believe that people in communities where FGM, forced marriage and similar are practised have a responsibility to combat it where they can.
I don't believe Muslims should be seen as having to protest the actions of overseas terrorist Muslims or be condemned as condoning it. It would be good if they did protest, ofc.
I view men similarly. I judge a man foremost on whether he challenges misogyny in his life, not on whether he protests overseas misogyny, although it's obvs a good thing if he does both.

I think this is complicated by Muslims being discriminated against, so people rightly want to challenge the idea that the horrendous actions of a minority reflect on the masses. But this shouldn't prevent advocacy for communities to tackle the problem.
I think I may have mentioned Sue Lloyd-Roberts' The War on Women upthread. It has v interesting but often grim chapters about places she reported on as a journalist, & the forced marriage, UK based chapter has an interesting interview (I think it may be available in ITN archives) where she talks to a young man, Tahrir, who mediates between daughters & fathers who are set on forced marriage. He suggests that community based solutions can work better as extreme people are more likely to listen to someone from their community, and discussion is more accepted than involving outsiders. Obvs the mediator needs to have the right intentions. In his case, he, at least by his account, was able to get the fathers to leave their daughters alone, although he did sometimes have to involve the police.

academic.oup.com/ojlr/advance-article/doi/10.1093/ojlr/rwae014/7685593

I think the problem is very complex and I strongly suspect a lot of the behaviours we see can be put down to dysfunctional thinking owing to consanguineous relationships causing major birth defects including issues with brain development.

I think this twiX thread highlights a problem

Copied from another chat

Non-muslims outraged at islamic extremism just vibe white-washing saviors. Where was your outrage when the UK occupied Afghanistan to for two decades and fled leaving it at the mercy of extremists that were intensified during this unwanted occupation? Where is your outrage when Gazan muslims are dying as their homeland is being continuously bomb?

Your outrage is designed to hide your Islamophobia and to other muslims.

So I should ignore what's happening in the UK & look over there. Did you peruse the twiX feed or go straight to Darvo?

Interesting that you're using DARVO as an attack know. I'm pretty sure you were accused of this on a thread this weekend. You learn fast

Did you look at the twiX link? Any thoughts on it's content?

This has nothing to do with feminism in Islam. Maybe you can go discuss it in whatever thread you copied it from.

Perhaps if you read the twiX feed you would see where it does intersect with feminist concerns. It also deals with other issues pertaining to the thread title.

No why would I

Why would you read it ? So you could comment knowledgeably if you choose to.

Why would you comment ? Why indeed.

Would it be fair to say you have quite a lot of hostility towards the West @kassieknows? That seems to be the theme of your posts.