Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

Why hasn't anyone told the Islamist Scholars and law makers that it's all a big misunderstanding?

Yes, I've read some analysis of this by believers. According to them its all ok because you must only hit your wife lightly, and its ok because you are doing it to prevent a divorce. Yep, that's right. They are actually arguing hitting your wife is a good method to save a marriage and prevent divorce.

Why, what is your understanding of the context which makes this passage ok?

(BTW, I am no meaning to single out Islam here. The justifications of ' difficult' passages I have read in other religions are also unconvincing).

I should add that its quite clear what the context is. Its that it was written in a time when it was inconceivable that a man should be forbidden from beating his wife.

Apologists for this passage try to justify it as a only a bit of light beating in specific limited circumstances and for good ends ( to prevent divorce!).

But I'd hope we can all agree nowadays, in a time when women are not subservient to men, that there is never a context in which hitting your wife is ok.

Disappointing that no one else seems to have taken issue with this @TammyOne . It's a pretty gross this for someone to have said.

But you can also be sure that in those countries you refer to that women are not attacked walking home from work.

Yes, because many aren't allowed to work and would be whipped (or worse) if seen out without a male chaperone.

You might want to read up on the morality police who brutally torture women for such infringements as leaving the house without a headscarf/showing too much ankle/etc.

The one that really sticks in my head is the 10yo girl who was tortured to death by the all-female morality police for stepping over the threshold of the house whilst cleaning. They let her mother choose the punishment and offered that she could take it herself.

She chose that her daughter be 'bitten', thinking it literally meant a bite from a human, but it was actually a nickname for a metal crocodile shaped device with sharp knives in its mouth designed to nip off chunks of flesh. The girl bled to death.

There are loads of stories like this. I remember a 16yo girl being beaten to death for not wearing her headscarf, a young mother having the biter used on her breasts for breastfeeding in public, and loads more women disappearing or being brutalised.

But it's no more violent a culture than we have over here tbf. The Catholic church regularly tortures 10 year old girls to death for stepping outside the house, right?

I take issue with it, but only saw the reply not the original quote. Judaism has been the most peaceful of the religions of the book, it hasn't established empires like Christianity and Islam. Jews have lived quietly and peaceful in the diaspora, vulnerable to terrible prejudice and discrimination and violent persecution.

To try to claim Judaism is an oppressor religion is astonishingly ahistorical.

@Honestlymade i agree….very few Christian’s still believe the world was made in 6 days, we understand that allegories were used to explain humans experiences and beliefs at that time in history, a time when societies could be highly chaotic and full of risk. it’s perfectly possible to have a modern faith and practise a religion without believing it is all literally the word of God…..unfortunately some people can’t see the hand that humans have played in how religions were written down and practised and think that if aspects of that religion are criticised you are criticising god (of whichever religion) themselves.

Rape and violence isn't part of Islam and its teachings. It's never condoned at all. What people fail to realise is that people are humans and it's common for humans to make mistakes, and /or misinterpret what Islam teaches.

Yeah and rape culture doesn't exist either, y'know. What people fail to realise is that men are humans and it's common for men to make mistakes, and/or misinterpret what we're taught about consent.

(Said no feminist ever.....)

Apart from Israel, obvs.

Israel is not an empire. Its the original homeland of Jewish people that they were kicked out of.

Arabs and Jews have equal rights in Israel under law. The same is not true in Palestine.

If you want to link a religion to violence and colonisation, you might want to look first at Islam and Christianity. You would have more material to work with.

Rape and violence isn't part of Islam and its teachings. It's never condoned at all. What people fail to realise is that people are humans and it's common for humans to make mistakes, and /or misinterpret what Islam teaches

This is not true either. Beating your wife is violence and is in the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran is also clear in its instruction to Mohammed that enslaved women are ' lawful' for him (to have sex with). Cutting off thieves' hands is also in the Qu'ran. These are all acts of violence.

You jest, surely.

To suggest a nation that has slaughtered 40,000 people is quiet and peaceful, cannot be serious.

I'm not arguing that the Abrahamic faiths are peaceful.

Judaism has been the most peaceful of the Abrahamic religions, and probably of all the world religions. As I described in my last post. I won't bother repeating it.

Israel is a more tolerant and rights giving society to its citizens.

I realise the facts are uncomfortable to your prejudice, but there we go.

Well we can all say words and claim they're facts. You're obviously unaware of the occupation of Gaza and current alleged genocide. I won't bother repeating it.

You have no idea who's oppressed by looking at them.

In countries where modest clothing is mandated by Sharia law, what would happen to a woman if she chose to dress in what would be considered ‘immodest’ clothing? Fines, imprisonment, corporal punishment, harassment, and so-called ‘honour’ based violence. While yes it’s true that some women may choose to dress modestly, the key word is choose. In environments where deviating from the dress code results in severe punishments, the lack of choice makes it pretty obvious that these women are not free. So yes, it is in fact possible to tell whether someone is oppressed by looking at them.

I've criticised Israel so that makes me racist. Very original.

The problem is men.
across all faiths, no faiths, all countries.
It's men.

I would love to be educated. I agree that it's not fair to only focus on the 'bad' islamic nations like Afghanistan or Iran, or Iraq, or Saudi Arabia, or Egypt, or Qatar, or the Philippines... what islamic nation would you say best demonstrates what you consider to be the real version of islam? We only seem to hear about the bad ones and never about the ones where women and gay people have full freedom and autonomy. I definitely think it would be helpful to to learn more about these ones, I think it would help people understand it's culture that makes countries bad, not islam. Is a bit odd though how so many islamic countries have similarly misogynistic and homophobic cultures... do you consider this to be entirely coincidental, or do you think there's any possibility that the influence of islam might possibly have something to do with it?

I tried to look for the thread you've started about the country currently encouraging priests to assault children, but I couldn't find it. Could you post a link? I haven't heard anything in the news about it, but I agree that it's horrific and would like to know more. I'll probably just discuss it on the thread you've made about it though, I wouldn't want to derail this one by including something entirely unrelated to the topic at hand...

There is a problem with any religion that sets itself above the actual law of the land.

I would also say any religion that puts itself above nationality is very problematic.

Sure. So it's not a lazy way of closing down something you don't want to hear. That Israel has slaughtered tens of thousands of people and occupied Gaza for decades. Anyone who points out facts, is wacist!

No, @Honestlymade outlined quite clearly a couple of posts ago what exactly it is you have said that is problematic. It's not criticising Israel that's problematic, it's the actual words you used that are problematic. You chose specific words in order to cause offence when there really was no need.

Educate me please. Which words did I choose in order to cause offence?

It might not have been you, actually. But you seemed to think @Honestlymade was calling you a racist so I assumed the things being referred to were things you said.

"Its also true that you can spot racists when they utter phrases like ' a violent nation' (rather than a violent government) and phrases like ' Judaism is responsible for the death of million' (which is simply untrue),"

If it wasn't you who said them I really don't understand why you accused her of calling you a racist?