Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

Oh I see what I wrote before sounded confusing. I meant reaching out to Muslim MNetters as in inviting them politely to discuss feminism here, not going and posting on the actual Muslim MNettters board. I apologise for the confusion.

I got the impression @MerryLemur was being sarcastic and alluding to the fact the double standards from some over the last few days has been quite a spectacle, to say the very least.

Sarcastic about what? Sorry, have I missed something? !

I said people here should read it and see they're not nurturing feminist intracommunity efforts by speaking so confrontational. People shouldn't be posting on Muslim MNetters on such a fraught topic.

If people on this thread don't have right of reply there, why do you think they should read people, who IMO are missing some of the good points made here, making insulting and arguably confrontational comments about them?

You clearly agree with them but neither your view nor theirs is the be all and end all on this topic. I've spoken to plenty of Muslim women before, thanks. But I still believe all organised religions are patriarchal and misogynistic and sexist in nature.

This is the Feminism board. Women have different views within feminism but it centres all women's rights, not religion. I fully agree all women should have the right to practice their chosen religion, but not every action by a woman is a feminist action.

Feminists wanting to see the view of Islam from a mulslim feminist woman inside Islam should consider looking into Irshad Manji's work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trouble_with_Islam_Today

I don't think I've seen any racist or unpleasant posts, are there any in particular that have caused offense? There have been several muslim posters on this thread and people here have engaged politely and asked questions. Unfortunately, the posters seemed either unwilling or unable to answer certain questions; for example, someone said that men weren't supposed to ogle or attack women 'if they were covered' but when asked what about women who weren't 'covered' they ignored the question, which isn't very helpful. Questions have also been asked and ignored about homosexuality, marital rape, educating children and several direct quotes from the quaran and hadiths. The question of which islamic society best represents the ideal has been posed and refused repeatedly, as has the question of why so many islamic societies have similar attitudes to women if it's nothing to do with the religion.

If people are complaining about this thread they are clearly aware of it, why not come here and answer people's questions? Surely that would be a more sensible approach than setting up a new thread and whining about how horrid we all are?! I have been away for the weekend so missed a lot, but reading through it seems as though a different thread was set up to complain about this one - though it seems to have been taken down, seemingly because of hate speech? I don't know who was spreading the hate, or why. And now apparently there's another thread accusing us of 'islamophobia', again without any attempt to first participate in civilised conversation. Doesn't seem terribly productive tbh.

The site stuff thread was taken down bc of Islamophobia - and anti-Semitism.

I'm not sure how this adds to the thread. Some people don't want Islam to be criticised at all irrespective of how it's discussed, and that's their prerogative.

This thread has been labelled as Islamaphobic, racist and far right by various posters in an attempt to close down discussion.

No ideology or culture is or should be above criticism or the application of critical thinking. Offence is subjective. If I take offence to the thread in Muslim MN, can I get it taken down? I don't appreciate being associated with the BNP or racism for conveying opinions that some people don't like.

If all 'offensive' posts were deleted MN wouldn't exist because people can take offence to anything. This thread can be hidden so those who are offended don't have to see it.

I'd love to hear from feminists and what they're doing to counter misogyny and oppression.

@username101010 Sorry, I think the post was aimed at me - I was catching up on the thread and it sounded like things got quite heated over the weekend, it seemed someone had started a thread to complain about this one which had then had been taken down for repeated hate speech. Which confused me a bit as this thread seemed perfectly civil. How on earth did anti-Semitism feature?! Actually, I really don't want to know, it sounds utterly toxic... such a shame we can't just have one sensible, polite thread where people - from both 'sides' - can discuss and debate without resorting to insults and attacks. From a quick glance at the new thread, it seems much of the same - we're apparently all racist and 'edf' for daring to question anything relating to islam! Extremely pleased mn are letting this one stand, this determination to shut down discourse is very worrying.

otnot, yes, sorry, that was replying to you. Sorry for the confusion. The anti- Semitism was similar to here, saying people would insult Islam and Muslims, but not Jews and Judaism, when that's clearly completely untrue. Several people on Muslim MNetters expressed their opposition to the anti-Semitism.

Here's another link from Pakistani-American professor Shehnaz Haqqani's blog. She dismantles the claim that all of the prophet's wives were happy about his polygamy.
https://orbala.wordpress.com/2015/01/30/the-prophets-wives-were-not-happy-co-wives-and-what-happens-when-muslim-women-say-this-out-loud/

I'm not sure how this adds to the thread. Some people don't want Islam to be criticised at all irrespective of how it's discussed, and that's their prerogative.

This thread has been labelled as Islamaphobic, racist and far right by various posters in an attempt to close down discussion.

No ideology or culture is or should be above criticism or the application of critical thinking. Offence is subjective. If I take offence to the thread in Muslim MN, can I get it taken down? I don't appreciate being associated with the BNP or racism for conveying opinions that some people don't like.

If all 'offensive' posts were deleted MN wouldn't exist because people can take offence to anything. This thread can be hidden so those who are offended don't have to see it.

This.

And here she points out that the Quran never forbids Muslim women from marrying Christian or Jewish men. It doesn't say whether they can or can't. Sexist male scholars interpret that as a definite no, of course! https://orbala.wordpress.com/2017/08/01/the-quran-does-not-prohibit-womens-marriage-to-people-of-the-book-and-other-facts-about-interfaith-marriage-in-islam/

I'm sorry if posters on the Muslim mumsnetters thread are upset/ offended but I really haven't seen anything on here that isn't fair comment about the current position of women in Islamic countries. There is factual data available as well as news stories and women's testaments.
People always say about any criticism 'that's not the true Islam'. I would really appreciate if someone could point me to the 'true' Islam out of all the varieties that exist. I do understand that human falibility precludes perfection.

I agree.

Haven't seen much about this.
The UK, US, Australia, Canada and New Zealand have issued a joint statement to mark the second anniversary of the death of Mahsa Zhina Amini in Iran's police custody, which sparked the nationwide Woman Life Freedom protests in Iran.
"We stand with women and girls in Iran, and Iranian human rights defenders, across all segments of society in their ongoing daily fight for human rights and fundamental freedoms," the four countries' foreign ministers said.
"We call on the new Iranian administration to fulfil its pledge to ease pressure on civil society in Iran and to end the use of force to enforce the hijab requirement," they added.

x.com/IranIntl_En/status/1835786971290931666?t=PJdwREmErMLaVms0DsiVTw&s=19

This is also feminist activism.
Mahsa Amini's voice lives on, and the path of all the immortal heroes of our homeland, who sacrificed their lives for the freedom and dignity of Iran, continues.

Shout their eternal names. Share their stories of courage. Stand by their brave families. Stand shoulder to shoulder against the Islamic Republic regime. Together, we are stronger.

#MahsaAmini

x.com/PahlaviReza/status/1835398248644714857?t=tL8Pr03UIQrTm0VyFVuU7w&s=19

Mahsa Amini

Here's the full UK statement

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/joint-statement-two-years-after-mahsa-zhina-aminis-death

Excerpt

In daily life, women and girls continue to face severe repression in Iran. The renewed “Noor” hijab crackdown, which enforces Iran’s law requiring women to wear headscarves, has spurred a fresh round of harassment and violence. The Iranian government has bolstered its surveillance infrastructure to arrest, detain, and in some cases torture women and girls for their peaceful activism. According to human rights organisations, Iran is one of the foremost executioners of women globally.

The Story | The Times and The Sunday Times

Not sure if link will work but this morning's Times podcast is about the women of Afghanistan, including an interview with a female doctor. Subscription not necessary. The two takeaways for me were the question of what can and should be done about it, and the fact that the world doesn't seem to care at all. So maybe the first question doesn't matter much if everyone's happy to just ignore what's happening; guess it'll be pretty easy to forget what's going on if the victims can't speak out to protest.

There is lots of anti-Semitism on Mumsnet. And one reoccurring theme is blaming all Jews for the actions of the state government of Israel.
In some ways - there are obvious differences- is it not similarly wrong to treat the actions of the Afghan, Saudi, Iranian etc governments as the responsibility of all Muslims?

The theme of the thread, is if Islam is to blame for oppressing women. Islamic countries tend to have extremely oppressive laws and cultures that discriminate against women. The justification for those laws and practices is the Qur'an and other texts.

I'm sure that if Israel was discriminating against women and dehumanising them while quoting scriptures, they'd equally be criticised.

But there have been several posts asking why Muslims aren't saying 'Not in our name' or protesting against these actions. I know there's a difference as many Jews don't follow the religion while Muslims by definition do(Well I guess you can have cultural Muslims though..).
Ofc the issues at stake are different, but I think it's unfair to make it the responsibility of Muslims to protest the actions of other governments who use Islam to justify their horrible views. Just as I don't think it's fair to make the wrongful actions of the Israeli government (I don't mean fighting back, I mean allowing the extra settlers to displace others), which they sometimes justify using Judaism, the responsibility of all religious Jews.

I don't understand the drama. People are wondering why other Islamic countries aren't speaking out. There have also been questions regarding basing laws on ancient and often oppressive texts.

Some people have questioned mandatory clothing for women and other restrictions placed on women as well as deviant practices.

You seem to be suggesting that these issues shouldn't be raised because people don't like it. Unfortunately that's the nature of free speech, sometimes you hear things you don't like.

Jews only have the one country which is currently engaged in a war defending itself after a horrific terrorist attack, against an enemy whose one sworn ambition is their annihilation. Everyone presumably accepts that they do have the right to defend themselves, even if some feel they have gone too far. Anyone with even a basic understanding of history is also presumably aware that the jews aren't really known for being murderous warmongers. Now, if they set up a load of other jewish countries who all start bombing their neighbours, I imagine people would very quickly start asking whether judaism itself might be the problem.

In the case of islam we see very similar attitudes to women across many muslim societies, even when they are culturally, racially and geographically entirely distinct. If the only common feature is the religion, it seems sensible to consider that this might be the cause.

As for asking why people aren't speaking out, I too am uncomfortable with the idea of expecting people to actively protest if they don't want to be considered complicit. But I think for a lot of people it does seem a bit odd that a group that is obviously very capable of organising protests is silent about issues like the treatment of women in certain muslim societies like Afghanistan, Iran etc. Surely a few placards could be added to those already being paraded in the existing marches? Nobody should feel any compunction to do so, but I think it's fair to point out that someone might be confused as to why people who can muster the energy to protest a foreign power who are defending themselves against terrorists are unable to muster any to protest their fellow muslim women being silenced, enslaved, raped, tortured and murdered in the name of their religion.