Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

otnot, about the situation of Algerian women, I agree it's pretty crap. But headstone had a good point: it was a real gain in context.Look at Saudi Arabia, the situation is still pretty bad, but is slowly improving. Gaining that one right for consensual polygamy seems pathetic from the outside, but shouldn't be disregarded. I imagine many Algerian women are v religious (maybe wrong) & telling them to abandon their religion wouldn't effect much change. What else could the Algerian feminists do but work w the system?

Olympic, bc many Muslim women feel that Western feminists unfairly criticise their religion for things practised by other religions. I was pointing out that it's not uniquely oppressive often, in its doctrine, so much as the religious hierarchy is uniquely oppressive. Sharia is simply the interpretation of the Quran & Muhammad's life, unfortunately Wanhabism has far too many clerics & followers in a deadlock.
I know Jewish posters here have felt v attacked since Oct 7, I'm sorry for using that example. I think there are similar menstrual taboos in Hinduism, & they're far more widespread.

I'm new to this thread and haven't read it yet - I tend to start with the last couple of pages with long threads.

I was on the other now deleted thread - saw it in Active, and it made me think I should check this one out too. Forgot until saw this in Active just now.

So I should probably read this thread properly before commenting.

Just two things though. First, as I pointed out on the deleted thread, I understand from Jewish friends that Jewish people often prefer to be referred as Jewish people, not Jews. Obviously I can't speak for anyone other than the people I know who don't represent every Jewish person (and I'm not Jewish myself so can't fully understand) but they told me racist antisemites tend to say "Jews", hence the preference for "Jewish people".

Secondly, Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion. Many Jewish people in the UK (and I understand in Israel too) are secular but ethnically Jewish.

The settlers are a small minority of Israelis. Maybe they are using religious or historical arguments for "returning to their ancestral homeland" - but they're unrepresentative of the majority of Jewish people in Israel let alone anywhere else in the world. So your argument is a false equivalence. (To be clear I'm not suggesting that British Muslims should be held responsible for actions of other countries).

This is exactly what struck me on the deleted thread. I'm going to take time to read through this thread tonight but what I don't understand if why some people seem to feel the need to do the "But Jewish people". Why are they so obsessed with rushing to mention Jewish people, when feeling the need to make a comparison?

It's particularly confusing to me because Jewish people - both in the UK and worldwide are a small minority compared to some other religions. Even when including secular non religious ethnically Jewish people.

I should probably read the thread now before commenting again.

Wind, I'm really sorry. I really don't want to upset any Jewish people. I've read that about the term 'Jew'. I've also read that Jewish people can find the use of 'Jewish people' othering. I think, on balance, I'll use 'Jewish people' as this seems to generally be preferred.

I agree that using Judaism as a comparison was a mistake, especially as there's so much anti-Semitism atm. I wanted to show that many oppressive features of Conservative Islam are practised by Conservative branches of other religions, ie its tenets aren't uniquely oppressive, its leaders are!
Can I rephrase my point w Catholicism? I'm a Catholic myself. Would it be fair to say that Catholics worldwide were agreeing w the misuse of Catholicism, eg in the Troubles, priests forbidding condoms in Aids hotspots, and far too many others, unless they spoke explicitly against them?

Wind, would you say that the extremists represent the majority of Muslims? I hope not, I feel the extremists are holding their countries hostage, hence the protests.

Thank you.

@AliasGrace47 I'm sure you didn't mean any harm but there's literally hundreds and hundreds of threads on the Conflict in the Middle East board where posters have spent pain-staking time and effort dissecting Jewish people and Judaism. Mocking us, talking over us and denying us our experience of racism, accusing us of being genocide supporters, telling us they're fed up with cries of antisemitism being used to shut down conversation and actually it's just Zionists they hate (bearing in mind a majority of Jews are Zionist in some way because they believe Israel has a right to exist). Oh and playing their favourite game, 'good Jew, bad Jew'. With link after link to dodgy pro-terrorist alt media. Posters who wanted this and the now-deleted thread zapped, ironically.

That's why Jewish posters are a bit tired of every discussion descending into 'what about the Jews'.

@AliasGrace47 I'm not Jewish myself so tbf I'm only saying what Jewish friends of mine have said. I don't know how representative of other Jewish people they are (re their feelings on the wording).

Your reply has shown how civil discussion can be constructive. You've been respectful in your reply and acknowledged what I said.

Not everyone (whatever religion, race, gender, etc) seems able to do that whatever's being discussed.

Perhaps if more people responded like you, there would be less hostility in the world?

I'm not Catholic so don't feel I can answer your questions. My ex was Catholic but he disliked the Catholic Church (I think because he hated his Catholic school).

Maybe someone who's Catholic can reply to your questions?

Re the Islamic extremists. I assume they don't represent a lot of Muslims. I also have a lot of admiration for those protesting for women's rights especially in countries where this is currently dangerous for them to do .

I understand there's various different interpretations of Islam? Similar to different Christian denominations?

I think I see a disconnect sometimes in that women who choose to wear a hijab or other forms of covering up may say that it is because of their relationship with Allah, it’s how they see fit to follow instructions in the Quran and that this actually desexualises them , and that men have a responsibility to manage their own desires….but it feels like men sometimes seem to judge women on their purity and morality ,so a woman choosing not to cover up is therefore impure or lesser. If you never even see women in your own community uncovered then how do you see women of other cultures? I’m minded of my time living in Germany and how blasé about nudity they are ( rather different to the typical British culture I am used to )…how much more challenging it must be for immigrants from other cultures ( you may remember some of the stories about certain towns in Germany banning migrants from swimming pools due to lewd behaviour and having to employ “behaviour police” to teach German pool etiquette or the issue with assaults on local women by soldiers from Libya stationed in the UK). Again, none of these things are considered acceptable in Islam but I do feel the practise of religion can mandate certain things that determine cultural attitudes towards women and lead to men behaving in unacceptable ways.

It's especially uncalled for when it's done in the context of the Muslim majority countries being discussed on this thread, which have Jewish populations ranging from minuscule to zero.

@AliasGrace47 I appreciate you taking this on board.

Yes, that we should access the divine through a male priesthood gatekeeping it in mans image.
Sod that.

I find it hilarious that progressives will call you a racist for asking these questions, but they have no qualms talking down on Christianity and blaming it as the cause for making people act differently to how they want them to act. E.g. anti-abortion you'll often hear them blame Christianity for it as being the root cause that drives the anti-abortion movement. Or homophobia. Plenty of examples exist.

But Islam supposedly isn't problematic? Come on...every ideology has the potential to be problematic and religions tend to be archaic ones that haven't moved with the times. So yes, there is a problem with Islam.

See posts above for the bromance between the left and radical Islam @MrGHardy .

But that’s a bit obvious isn’t it, no reasonable person would say otherwise.The difference is between people who practise their faith from the perspective of being a moderate Muslim with a good heart as to opposed to those who practise their faith from an interpretation of Islam that is not moderate….or, to be honest, an interpretation that is more in line with historic interpretations and practises. I have friends who are primary school teachers working in an area of my city that draws a percentage of pupils from a particular immigrant group, those teachers are regularly told by their young , male pupils that they “don’t have to listen to you because you are a woman”. Do you have any confidence that male children being raised in a household like that will have western ideals of respect towards women when they grow up ?

Could you address this point that @untiltheend made, please @AliasGrace47? You didn't.

Eresh, I took until's as rhetorical. Of course they won't have respect for women if those are the values being taught. Hopefully school provides an alternate view, though if it's ingrained it's hard to change..

As to whether the modesty culture exacerbates sexual harassment, if moderately applied to both genders, not judging those who don't do it, it shouldn't. But obviously it's often not applied that way..
A man shouldn't sexually harass a woman using women normally being covered around him as an excuse. Sadly men like that will use anything, but if unpleasant imams etc are feeding those views it builds up impunity no doubt...

From experience I would say there is quite a lot of harassment of females who don't dress in the manner approved by some Muslim men. I known numerous females who have told me they have been offered money for sex when out and about wearing typical summer dresses or shorts and t shirts. I was sceptical at first but then witnessed the comments.

ais it a particularly difficult question to answer?

@psifreeze Apologies I completely forgot to get back to you but I have since decided I wasn't going to return to this thread as I found it upsetting. Whilst I am secure in the knowledge that Islam isn't a problematic religion, I don't want to come on here to answer questions which will be shut down by posters because they disagree. A healthy discussion surrounding Islam and any other religions people disagree with is fine but the tone of this thread hasn't been healthy.

How do you think Jewish people have felt then in many of the threads your an active participant in?

@anotherlevel I believe all religions are misogynistic to a greater or lesser extent. Happy to discuss within that context.

OP here, yes, author of the original "badly worded" and "faux-innocent" post! Badly worded I will take, yes probably could have been more specific etc; as previous posters have said it was on the feminism board so I had assumed the focus would be around women, although I suppose I did deliberately make it quite open because I wanted broad responses. Thank you to everyone who has posted on the thread because it has been really useful and informative with some excellent links as well to other sites and people. Its crazy that there has been another thread arguing this one should be shut down! I didnt look at that other thread, it was enough to catch up for ages every few days on this one. But, the fact that people have said this thread and even the premise of this thread is islamaphobic just proves my original feeling on this; that one is accused of racism (BNP meeting anyone?!) or islamaphobia if one tries to examine or criticise this particular religion, over other religions. I think it is crucial that we can always criticise other ideologies, political stances, and religions, without fear of condemnation or harm. I think it is a shame that some muslim MNs felt upset or insulted by the thread as to me it seemed largely respectful and posters mostly engaged with integrity. Having read the whole thread, I do feel better informed, and like I have got my head around the whole thing a bit more; all religions can be used as a tool of oppression, and all the major religions have been used in that way at various points in history and locations. Right now, I personally do think Islam is being used in that way more than other religions, both in the UK to some degree and overseas: others may disagree with this and that is fine, it is not a easy assessment to make. For me, the events such as the Batley school teacher, honour killings, and Salman Rushdie for example, are a problem, and I dont believe those things would happen at this point in time, in the name of christianity or hinduism etc. Perhaps in the past yes. I do think that is mostly cultural, and that Islam can absolutely be practised moderately and in non-oppressive ways potentially, or at least as much as any religion could be. Women within Islam who work towards progress and change are amazing, and often unbelievably brave. I think the thread has finally fizzled out so Im not trying to start it all up again, i just didnt want to "disappear" entirely, and I wanted to acknowledge the contributions from everyone.

web.archive.org/web/20240309110049/www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5024638-does-the-torah-really-say-this

I believe the poster was refering to this thread, the OP of which @anotherlevel is now rather hypocritically accusing posters of being disingenuous when asking questions about the Quran.

FunnyJade, no, that's wrong. You should have the same presumption of majority good faith towards other religions if you want that for your own religion.

As the daughter of an Iraqi, the delusional is strong here 🤣🤣

It was clearly an AI generated post aka a load of bullshit in the context of this thread.

Just saw Kemi Badenoch this morning and thought, fuck me, it's a brave new world where someone in politics finally has the courage to tell the truth on TV!